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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

Problems New Tank

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30 Jun 2009 08:20 #1 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Hi Guys,

Our tank is up and running 12 weeks now 240 litre with 23 fish in it, all was going well fish happy and healthy util we got a master test kit and the PH is in the regin of 9.5, we are new to the game so you will have to excuse our mistakes so far, my brother had set up the filter an external fluval 250 green, when i opened this up after 10 weeks realised he had not taken the double bag off the carbon or taken the bio max media out of it's bag. we remeided this and carried out a 75% water change along with rinising the sponge filter clean cleaning out all the interal rocks and wood and so on, have been carrying out 25% water changes every three days the ph briefly goes to around 8 and then heads back up to 9.5, we tested the gravel and found lime in this, so removed all of that and replaced it with new stuff.The PH is still going high, have lost 6 fish now and we have tried everthing we can to remedy it, we cant understand why the PH is going so high, our tap water PH is 7.0 all nitrates and ammonia tested fine. We bought peat for the filter last week and removed the carbon from the filter, this seems to have hadno effect on lowering the PH either, can ye guys think of anything that might help?

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30 Jun 2009 08:43 #2 by mrsFishpatrick (Astrid Fitzpatrick)
Did you test the decor (rocks) as well?
Sounds like a lot of water changes to me, sometimes a stable ph is better than a fluctuating one, untill you found the culprit that is making your ph go up.

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30 Jun 2009 08:46 #3 by Ian (Anthony Ramirez)
I wonder if you got any corals in there?

Fishkeeping CV: Co-founded, 1st President of the only surviving Fishkeeping Club (Accredited by Dept. of Fisheries) in the Philippines (mypalhs.com). I have mostly reared tropicals - Arowanas and monster fishes. My oldest arowana is 13years old (died in a tropical storm). Ive since reared a Black,...

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30 Jun 2009 08:55 #4 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Should, we stop with the water changes for now? We tested the gravel that had lime got rid of that! How about the rockwool that comes around plant roots can that cause a problem? We put whats called ocean rock in four weeks ago tested that by crushing it in pestal and mortar added it to water in test tube and used ph solution came back PH 6.5, then crushed some yesterday and added vinegar and it fizzed which means the presence of lime according to our fish book, we have removed that now too, and was hoping by doing the water changes might dilute the high ph if the source is gone! Does this mean that the bacteria levels in the tank will suffer and it is essentially like cyclyinG it from the start again?

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30 Jun 2009 09:34 #5 by PetCoLongMileRoad (Drew Latimer)
did you notice that the PH went up after you put the ocean rock in?

If you're going to be crazy, you have to get paid for it or else you're going to be locked up.

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30 Jun 2009 09:35 #6 by PetCoLongMileRoad (Drew Latimer)
also have ya got any java wood in the tank that normally brings the PH down

If you're going to be crazy, you have to get paid for it or else you're going to be locked up.

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30 Jun 2009 09:40 #7 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Problem is we had not tested the water until about 8 weeks when the test kit arrived before that is was the pet shop had tested it for us, we bought the rock there and the gravel elsewhere, its surely not correct for pet shops to sell these stones with lime in them is it?

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30 Jun 2009 10:24 #8 by JohnH (John)
Replied by JohnH (John) on topic Re:Problems New Tank
Unfortunately for you there now is a lot of demand for higher lime content rocks and gravel, mostly used by keepers of Rift-Valley fish - the natural water there has a high pH and is also pretty hard too, so shops have every right to be selling them, to answer your question.
Having said that you really should have tried the 'vinegar test' beforehand...but as you're newcomers there is no reason for you to even have considered it. My advice for any newcomer is that the VERY FIRST thing you buy is a good quality Test Kit, and this is not solely my opinion, it really is a MUST.
However, you have done the next best thing by having your local fish suppliers test samples of water for you. Unfortunately in this instance perhaps they were found to be a little 'wanting'...

You have done the right thing by removing both the gravel and Ocean Rocks. My suggestion for now would be to continue your water changing regime, but less per change - but more frequent. This is because your fish will have become acclimatised to the very high pH and sudden drops in acidity can prove to be not in their best interests, you could buy some Peat (I find the pellets to be very good in that they do not release small fibres into the water, which can look unsightly) into a mesh bag and put this into your external filter. The pellets release their acidity more slowly too, but will cause your water to take on a brownish hue which some people dislike and others (myself included) find a more 'natural' appearance.
Should you not like it I am assured that putting carbon into the filter will remove the tanning colour...but beware, carbon does need changing (or removing) after only a little while as it starts to release any 'unpleasantnesses' it has previously removed once its capacity becomes full.

Keep monitoring your pH and once it reaches the same as the top-up water you can remove the peat, then your pH will become stable...but if it starts to drop suddenly then you will have to take evasive action as a pH drop is every bit as dangerous - possibly more so - than high pH!

Let us know how things progress, and by the way, welcome to the Forum.

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


ITFS member.



It's a long way to Tipperary.

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30 Jun 2009 11:40 #9 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
HiJohn H, we have put in the fluval peat pellets put thm in a pair of tights and into the filter seemed to have no impact so there are in there loose now still seem to have not taken effect!

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30 Jun 2009 13:40 #10 by scubadim (scubadim)
Replied by scubadim (scubadim) on topic Re:Problems New Tank
Hi,
Just reading some of this,i'm quite surprised your pH reached 9.5.
and also that after you tested pH of water and crushed ocean rock you end up with 6.5.
I would try and get your water tested by somebody else for a second opinion.
your water test kit might not be the most accurate.
one more thing is adding peat or bogwood does not lower the pH of all waters,only if the water is medium hard to soft the pH will lower.if it's hard water,it won't or only lightly affect the pH.
Let us know how you get on.
Dimitri

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30 Jun 2009 13:43 - 30 Jun 2009 13:45 #11 by JohnH (John)
Replied by JohnH (John) on topic Re:Problems New Tank
Sorry then, I cannot think of any other suggestions to make - well, not simple ones anyhow.

Are you absolutely certain you have now removed all the offending gravel and rocks? - I don't suppose you have any ornaments?

In theory, if you are replacing water with pH 7 then it must start to come down, I am certain - it's only when you have something in the tank acting as a 'buffer' to bring up the pH that the change would not come about.

I apologise in advance for asking this, but you are certain you are reading the test results properly? Although you only just bought it there could also be the very slightest of chances it might be 'out of date' - but most unlikely.

Are your fish OK? - ie feeding and acting normally? - any fish losses?

I think that as long as the fish are OK then keep up water changes, if you change 10-15% even every day I cannot see how the pH will eventually start to come down.

One last question? - How long have the peat pellets been in your water? I'm wondering if they were in there when both the alkaline gravel and rocks were there whether they might have lost their effectiveness by now.

Other than that I can make no further suggestions - anyone else?

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


ITFS member.



It's a long way to Tipperary.
Last edit: 30 Jun 2009 13:45 by JohnH (John). Reason: word omitted

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30 Jun 2009 14:45 #12 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Hi guys,

Thanks for the replys, so far have lost 8 fish two of them were not related to the high PH one of our two spot gouramis jumped out and committed suicide (rest his soul) :( 1 angel came very weak from the shop the other six are down to PH, we have oranaments a shipwreck and a scuba helmet, apart from that have driftwood and real grass, all gravel and rock is now out of the tank.
The peat was in before gravel and stone came out so might try changing that up and see what happens with it, might be worth a shot.

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01 Jul 2009 09:45 #13 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Lost another german ram last nite, only one of them left now and he seems to be struggling! Changed out the peat last nite as suggested by John H and this seems finally to be making a difference PH was down this morning when leaving home.

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01 Jul 2009 10:09 #14 by JohnH (John)
Replied by JohnH (John) on topic Re:Problems New Tank
Well,
You seem to be getting somewhere now, it's a real shame about the Rams, but I've expressed the opinion before that some of the so-called 'German Rams' actually emanate from the Far East - even though the strain was originally developed in Germany. These are now very delicate (understatement) and often die very soon after being brought to their new homes (our tanks)...on the right towards the top of the page there is a 'search' facility, type "Rams" or "German Rams" and 'go' you'll be amazed at some of the problems people have had with them, and this is only one Forum!!!
You might want to hold off replacing them, a fish of neutral/low pH water, until your conditions have stabilised - at least to the same pH as your source water is.

When the opportunity arises check your ornaments to make sure they aren't broken in a small way, many are made from plastics which ought to be OK anyway but some are made from moulded and sealed plaster - which, if damaged could leach into the water over time, having an adverse effect on the pH. This probably isn't the case, but check just to make sure.

Let's hope your problems are gradually coming to an end.

Keep up the water changes!

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


ITFS member.



It's a long way to Tipperary.

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07 Jul 2009 11:23 - 07 Jul 2009 11:32 #15 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
www.duboisi.com/diy/BNdiytank/bndiytank.htm

Guys,

The tank has started to raise PH again, the tapwater that goes in is 7-7.5ph, after three to four hours it goes to 8.5-9ph. Its an acrylic tank sealed with aquarim friendly silicone and weld on 90 and constructed as per the above website. The tank has an external stainless steel frame to give it strength, i have noticed the gouramis when blowing bubbles, land water on this and it goes back in the tank after, would this water effect ph? Also recently doin a 75% change the heater was left on, melted some plastic, would this effect it? The filter is a fluval 205 green, and is designed for tanks up to 240litre ours is 234 is there a problem here maybe? We have changed gravel removed rock, taken carbon out of filter and bio stuff added peat and PH still spiking. Can anyone help?

www.selfbuildardmore.blogspot.com you will see the tank on my recent posts.
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Last edit: 07 Jul 2009 11:32 by jollyman (Henry Murphy).

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07 Jul 2009 13:05 - 07 Jul 2009 13:19 #16 by derek (Derek Doyle)
hi jollyman
it appears that the water in your tank is being buffered and this is causing the ph rise. kh or temporary hardness is what buffers the ph upwards. the fact that the fish were happy enough before u began testing would indicate to me that it is all the changes that is causing the fish deaths. even after removing the limestone gravel there will still be strong traces of gh and kh, this in itself should not be a major problem. high or low ph is not too great a problem in a tank. it is severe or continual changes in ph and/or ammonia that will cause fish deaths.
my advise is forget about the testing for the moment and let the tank water settle. do small daily water changes (10%)for a few days and reduce feeding to a minimum. this will reduce kh buffers and dilute excess ammonia. the filter will increase efficiency and this will stop the deaths. i would also add polyfilter or carbon to mechanically remove any possible excess ammonia or nitrite. hope this helps.
ps
the house build blog is very good.

30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish
Last edit: 07 Jul 2009 13:19 by derek (Derek Doyle).

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07 Jul 2009 14:09 #17 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Thanks for the reply Derek, i read somewhere that the carbon takes away the effectiveness of the peat? Is that correct! I said that to the other half also the tank was fine until we started messing with it, the first four weeks never tested and one 25% water change, have been changing more a less 25% every four days for the last 4-5 weeks now and they just keep getting worse!
I think, ill try what you have said and see what hapens!

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07 Jul 2009 16:04 #18 by derek (Derek Doyle)
it is best to get the tank water quality back to it's best and then u can work on reducing the ph if it's still very high.
stable ph even if a bit high is better than fluctuating values. when water is otherwise stable you can then (if desired) reduce ph gradually by adding peat and almond leaves and at this time remove polyfilter and carbon.

30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish

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10 Jul 2009 10:12 #19 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Hello all,

Back again, ammonia and nitrates have all tested fin, the PH is still very high lost an angel yesterday! What can we do to bring this down or what can possibly be causing the problem in the tank!!!

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10 Jul 2009 10:57 #20 by derek (Derek Doyle)
once u have the water quality right the high ph can be gradually reduced. ph will naturally drop in any tank when bicarbonates diminish. if kh (temp hardness) is high the ph will bounce back upwards no matter what you add.
i doubt that high ph will actually kill a fish though it can cause stress which can weaken the immune system. fluctuating ph (especially downwards)on the other hand is lethal and will send fish into shock and cause death.
so my advice is to let the tank settle down and the ph will fall naturally once the temporary hardness fades.
are u using well water?

30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish

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10 Jul 2009 11:47 #21 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Yes Derek, using well water its only about 8 weeks old too PH tests that at 7

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10 Jul 2009 12:12 #22 by derek (Derek Doyle)
the well just might be the cause of your problem. tom should be on the forum later and he has a lot of experience with wells and he will be able to advise best course of action.
are there crop farms nearby?

30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish

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10 Jul 2009 12:29 #23 by alkiely (alan kiely)
I have a similar problem too.......

My ph levels over the last month have pumped from around 7.3 to over 8.5. Havnt added anything different to the tank but they shot up like mad.

I looked at different ways to reduce it and keep it at the there, im after setting up a c02 system using a 2kg fire extinguisher, with help from the lads on the forum. This will slowly lower the ph and kh in my tank so i can keep South American dwarf cichlids.

The cost for the system was around 30 euro thats it (if you just come across a fire extinguisher)

I have a rio 180 and the F/E will last nearly a year, its alot more cost efficient then buying buffers to keep ur ph down, which you will have to add a buffer ever time you change ur water.

On the rams , i was heart broken got 5 lovely blue rams stunners and within 4 days they were all dead went back too my lfs and they chanced them for me and the same thing happened again, they even tested my own water and the manager agreed there was no problems with my water i asked were they got there deliveries from and he wouldnt tell me............

I was talking to one of the lads in the shop a few weeks later and he told me that they get some deliveries from the Czech rep which explains it all.

If you can stick to the sponsors shops they get good stock, so hopefully you shouldnt have any problem.

Alan

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10 Jul 2009 12:33 - 10 Jul 2009 12:57 #24 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Yea farm crops tillage land for about 40 acres all round. Thanks for that Alan would be interested to find out how that works.
Last edit: 10 Jul 2009 12:57 by jollyman (Henry Murphy).

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10 Jul 2009 20:11 #25 by alkiely (alan kiely)
Just have mine running now, its pretty simple all need is a few things

1) C02 fire extinguisher

2) Co2 piping

3) Single or dual gauge regulator

4) Diffuser

5) Check valve

6) drop checker

I got all the bit bar the F/E in a set, i have his e-mail if you want..../

Alan

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04 Aug 2009 07:18 - 04 Aug 2009 07:43 #26 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Hi folks,

What effect would lead have in a fish tank? I was determind at the weekend to solve the problem of the dying fish, 14 died the rest seem to have adapted at this stage to the high ph 8.5 to 9! I emptied all ornaments and plants out of the tank cleaned and siophened it, while disturbing the gravel with the siphon i found a strip of a lead like substance a plieable metal, i removed this added it to a test tube with tap water PH of 7, and after an hour the ph had inceased to 9.5. Would this have come in as a weight on the plants?
I did this saturday and have tested the tank sunday and monday PH seems to be steady at7.5 and going down as we still have peat in he filter, i realise that this drastic change will now have just as bad as an effect on the fish and we will probably loose a few more :( how long can a pleco last out of water?
Last edit: 04 Aug 2009 07:43 by jollyman (Henry Murphy).

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04 Aug 2009 12:09 #27 by alkiely (alan kiely)
Yeah that could be the answer you wanted, any pics of it...? Keep testing the tank over the next week and if it stays around were it is happy days:laugh:

You can now sit back and enjoy your fish and fish keeping again:woohoo: :woohoo:

Alan

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04 Aug 2009 12:25 #28 by jollyman (Henry Murphy)
Thanks for that alan, will take som pics tonight! I really hope it has solved the problem, and that we can go back to enjoying the fish. Thanks for your help.

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