Local shop or superstores?

Hi all just a little something to stimulate a bit of debate on a cold wet & windy night. Are pet superstores a blight or are they serving the fishkeeping community well. There could be an arguement that maybe they are keeping prices down by their mere presence but at what cost. The more superstores I visit the more concerned:( I have become about the quality & cleanliness of the tanks & the more I appreciate the small shops because they do care & they do look after their stock & tanks well. Any comments?

personally i prefer the small lfs, generally the owners have more of an input in the business than the manager of a faceless chain, as for keeping prices down that i feel is more a question of greed and location, fish in dublin i find are WAY more expensive than fish outside the pale, yes i know they may have a higher cost base etc but these fish come from the same suppliers etc but my local lfs dosent price as high as dublin lfs and he has additional transport costs, also the small lfs the owner usually i've found is a hobbyist and therefore knows more than some of these superstores staff who when it comes to fishkeeping expierence may have had a goldfish for a week when they where 10 and supposedly have expierence.... i've seen first hand a chap in a superstore bag an oscar and then put guppies in the same bag for transportation and look dumbfounded when counting the number of fish in the bag that it wasnt what he put in there, hell he even looked at the floor thinking they jumped out..... small knowlegable lfs every time in my opinion mostly because they appreciate the customer more, i've never had a freebie or been left off the odd few cent in a superstore but i have always had it in a small lfs....
thats my 2 cents ( ps there are good superstore out there too but sadly there too few and far between)

If Vendors take good care of their stock and are fairly priced, have properly paid staff that can impart good advice and if Vendees respect the fact that the Shop, be it Large superstore or Local Fish Store, are there to make a profit not to act as a charity, all will be well.

I find, most Fish Heads, so to speak, use the Superstores for sundries and LFS for quality Fish.


Kev.

I suppose i look at this debate from both sides really ......
a :- being a fish keeper
b :- workin in retail and dealing with customers

I guess the simple answer for me anyway would be .... I have no preference

if i see a fish i want .... and obviously if certain criteria are reached ( i.e. price , health of fish , staff knowledge etc )then i get the fish .

i understand the problem with the so called superstores , in that staff rarely have much knowledge of anything past " Thats a molly , and thats a guppy " and i myself have seen tanks in these places holding mixes of species that nobody with an ounce of knowledge would put together ( for example a group of 6 or 7 veiltail angels in the same tank as a school of approx 20 piranha ) but then again the question has to be asked ..... Wot training if any do the staff in these establishments get .

I myself have been in the hobby for almost 10 yrs now and would never claim to know everything about every species there are , so ya gotta wonder how someone workin a part time job 3 or 4 days a week in such a store can know everything .
Simple answer ..... THEY CAN'T , but a small bit of basic training from the store owners would go along way .... who knows .. if they get interested then a bit of self done research could lead to them taking up the hobby themselves . the more interest they have ... the more helpful they can be to their customers

i do think the main advantage of your lfs is that ( as already said ) they are usually run by someone who has this fore mentioned interest either through being involved in the hobby or due to just wanting to keep good regular customers comin back and keepin his/her head above water in the present economic climate .

all in all i think once ( as customers ) if we are happy with the service , the fish and the price then it really shouldn't matter where we shop .... after that it comes down to the same competition that has existed for generation upon generation between businesses aimed at the same clientelle

just my 2 cents

martin
( bloody hell i made that long winded )

It is an indication of the way everything is going. It's more profitable to sell everything while employing someone with no experience to flog it all for you. Wider net, lower wages & phooq the customer.

Problem. Too many customers for them to give a baajls

These stores have their uses. they should rather stick to dry stuffs aquariums ect and not bother selling live fish. Their set-up in "superstores" are not suitable for live stock of any kind.
To make that profitable you need to be selling a quite a few fish, with all the tanks, staff time leccy ect. I would can the whole department at a certain store and just sell everything but fish. Funny watching someone bagging a fish to see it pop into the air and nearly get under the store cabinets. lol back into the tank he went for the next unsuspecting buyer to purchaxe, oh yes, get your floor fish, right here in Santry.

A small lfs truely depends on the business and so cares if you come back, he usually owns or has some stake in the business Vs a chap\lady who gets a weekly wage doing a job they probably couldn't care less about doing and make no profit from looking after you and getting you back, the company does.

lfs all the way.

Mark

My last visit to a superstore was over a month ago and, bar any emergency, it will be my last. For instance, you see a fish that caught your eye, but, there is no price tag on the tank so you ask and the "fish guy" pulls an arbitrary number out of his a**. 30 Euros for a one inch Ram...rammit . There is NO justification for the extortionate prices we here in Dublin and Ireland in general have to pay for livestock and equipment. How these people havnt been put out of business by the web yet is mystifying.

Jay

Ah but just think of all the lovely freebies Jay...................Whitespot, columnaris, velvet, Hexamita........


Kev.

stretnik wrote:

Ah but just think of all the lovely freebies Jay...................Whitespot, columnaris, velvet, Hexamita........


Kev.

True, but they too can be free if I knock off my filter and forgo wc's, which, judging by what Ive seen in superstores recently, seems to be common practice. Those power bills must really be hampering with the the purchase of the owners 2010 Merc.

Jay

Im with Sheag on this one. Local shop everytime wins for me. However I will say that its not just some superstores who allow their staff to be poorly trained,Ive also visited local fish shops who do not have fish in the best conditions with some of their staff not understanding their needs etc..
Despite that I will say the lfs is far more likely to provide the odd freebie and in many cases throw in that extra fish at no cost.I think its up to people to find the best shop for them...I think the majority of people have a favourite shop and they will revisit that shop if they are treated correctly and can trust them. Sometimes you have to try a few lfs and some superstores before you find the one thats best for you.I know I travel over and hour to a lfs (well not quite local being an hour away) and I do it because I know I can depend on quality,price and as Sheag mentioned a genuine fishkeeper running and owning the business. Its not often you can email or give a shout to a superstore for abit of advise on some fish problem, the lfs will impart that advise without hesitation Ive found. Superstores are often ran by managers many miles away who are bulk ordering and turning over stock as quick as possible.
Some superstores seem to have a worse rep than others,many are improving and thats a good thing as far as competition is concerned.But again I prefer to support the lfs, I know the profits aren't going into one big master account where the profits aren't always redistrubuted to the store generating the profit.Its just my personal opinion

Gavin

Once is enough to turn anyone off Fishkeeping, Listless furry bodies stuck to filters or hoards of Plecos feeding off their dead buddies. They can't even be bothered to hide the decay from perspective buyers, it just doesn't seem to matter. If they just realised that an ounce of care would lead to tons of profit.

There are guys in superstores who do care I've seen it personally.

There was a LFS in the City Center, no longer there now, owned by one guy, it too was atrocious, he sat reading the Paper all day, was reluctant to sell fish, had meagre supplies of anything never order anything for you and even tho it was a small premises , it TOO had fuzzy fish lying on substrate, as someone said before on this Forum, there is the DSPCA, but what about prevention of cruelty to Fish etc?



Kev.

lfs here in Finglas has terrible terrible tanks. Albino Corycats less than one inch for sale, felt so sorry for em I bought em. They didn't survive even in the best of conditions\food in my cory tank.

Dark green tanks, dead fish, gravel to dirty to be in a driveway.

Agreed not all SStores are dodgy.
@ John. High staff turnover alright but there is something to be said for having an outgoing helpful attitude when envolved in sales of any kind, it really just takes no trouble at all to be helpful and give good advice, if you don't know, tell the customer so and where they might get the answers they need, buy a book, the web ect, at the end of the day we are responsible for our own aquarium's health.
Bad advice, wrong fish (Again bad advice) is what is wrong, also missing the basic fundamentals of care skill for the creatures. So I would say that the sales assistant needs to be competent first and foremost and a fish expert second.
We have come to expect less of our fellow human when the basics are "wished for" rather than present.

A basic course should be mandatory for all those who catre for animals in any way so as to ensure they are not compromising the health of the animal whilst in their care thus reducing the actual worth of the animal, though less important that it's actual welfare, from a business perspective.


Mark

P.S. Shouldn't sponsors be sending people to IrishFishKeepers.com as an info advice source when possibly needed.?

Flat out with water changes,so havn't the time for the response I want,but I think Mark has touched on a valid point here.I am amazed at the amount of people who put up a post along the lines of "I got a deadly looking fish today,a yellow cichlid,does anybody know what it is?",or the other posts that list the most mixed up and horrific combinations of species in a tank far too small,etc,etc. I believe it is down to the keeper to know what is suitable for his tanks and what is not.Granted,the staff should have some knowledge,at least the basics and some grounding in species requirements,diseases and meds,tank cycling,etc,but it is ultimately the responsibility of the keeper to chose the correct species for his tank,with some guidance from lfs staff.

Mark,I am guilty of it too,but it is not generally a good idea to buy fish out of sympathy,unless maybe you have a good quarantine set up.

Acara wrote:

Mark,I am guilty of it too,but it is not generally a good idea to buy fish out of sympathy,unless maybe you have a good quarantine set up.

I know, very true indeed, week moment, had an impusle to buy fish, tried to fight it, was just buying cigs, I am weak. Back to AA meetings


Mark

stretnik wrote:
, there is the DSPCA, but what about prevention of cruelty to Fish etc?



Kev.[/quote]

Im certain I read somewhere that fish and the like are considered lower vertibrates and are not protected in the same way as dogs/horses etc.

Jay

JohnH wrote:

I'm really enjoying this topic.

John

Me too, one of those little gems that get people saying what they are thinking. More of this guys...


Jay

IFS versus SS?

an interesting debate. Now, keeping within the rules...I am going to assume which type of SS's one is debating rather than places that are simply named ‘superstore’.

I haven't been to a SS for a while now. But would have browsed and bought quite happily when I often bothered to journey out and about.

But would I recommend that others go to them?

If the person where quite experienced and was able to spot a good or unusual buy, then I'd say 'go to so and so' some interesting stuff.
If, however, someone where starting out then I certainly would not recommend them to go to a SS (I'm generalising there....but would be true of the ones that I know).

So, why the different opinions of mine?

Firstly, and to be fair to any shop who has met me, I love to play it thick when I first visit a shop……..ask silly questions just to see what silly reply I get. (and my OH is even worse than I am….blonde at times)
I judge a shop from that for staff knowledge.

Many of the SS tend to be very 'unit' based IMO....it's a 'unit of stock' rather 'so many fish'.
Prices can be very low, and there is often a show in lacking fish-trade experience as they sometimes get some unusual fish in that 'those in-the-know trade' would never stock, and SS’s price them as blanket rates (low often).

Presto !!….for someone who knows what they are looking for, they can pick up a cheap ‘unusual’ without the input from the shop.
Dry good are often priced low, and I’ve seen some SS’s stock equipment that is really not in keeping with the general knowledge of the shop (eg High-end RO systems and every single service supply to go with it). I sometimes wonder if the stock is selected by a lucky dip system.
Now, all of that can actually be beneficial to someone with experience.

The same thing was true of many large garden centres in the UK way back when, when very large aquatic sections were installed.

So, why might I not recommend a SS to someone starting? Simple, in general, the advice and knowledge of many of the SS staff is rather limited OR (even worse) damaging.
I have often seen any old fish thrown in with whatever fish. OR take a tank full of mixed Aphyosemion killifish….throw all males and all females into a single tank and price them as “5 euro each”. Ummm. Even someone with experience would have difficulty picking out the relevant females.

Local Fish Shops now……in general, I’ve been a fan of local fish shops for all of my fish keeping days. I tend to visit them often. I like to get to know at least one member of the staff to chat to. I like to get to know what comes in what goes out, what tank had white-spot etc etc.
The staff have names for which I do not have to read off a name badge (that is just so so rude to read names on name badges).
I also get to know which staff members have the right knowledge and customer approach so that I could recommend a newcomer to approach them for advice.
Word of mouth is very important in a fraternity.

I like to support local shops as much as is possible (obviously if they are rubbish, and don’t sell what I want then I won’t buy). Price or saving a few bob is actually secondary in my opinion.
A well-stocked LFS is likely to have a good supply of a range of dry goods (not just what was picked out of a lucky dip). As a fish keeper, I depend upon knowing that I can get those supplies….so keeping a LFS in business is important to me.

BUT….I have seen LFS that are appalling. Even if there is staff knowledge, it is not reflected in the conditions of the tanks and fish in some that I have seen.
I’ve seen this in the UK and Ireland.
Some have had an attitude of a lethargic fish-keeper who has been hit with the apathy stick……..ie no business sense, no customer duty, fish are dying, and almost seems as though he/she is waiting for the last to drop dead before saying good-bye to the ‘hobby’.
You tend not to see this in SS’s (just 75% of the 300 empty tanks maybe) as there is some ‘business sense’ being applied.

There is room for the big SS’s and there is room for the LFS who know their niche and show customer and fish care.

Unfortunately, and in keeping within the rules of the forum, I can only generalise about these (which is unfortunate for those shops that do do a great service)

ian

i would agree with most comments made previously.
just as there are some very good, some average and even some downright bad local shops, the same could be said of the superstores. i strongly believe a good and knowledgable owner/manager is the main asset in running a good shop.
my main gripe is to see fish and other animals treated in a cruel and uncaring manner. fish should never have to suffer bad water quality and parasitic infection due to staff ignorance.
like any business the pet trade was always profit driven, but in recent times it has gone out of control and the animals are the big losers. thankfully there are still some decent shops and we should all do our best to support a shop that gives good advice and has healthy stock.
price although a factor, should not always dominate our thinking when deciding where we shop.