Ammonia ?

Anyone know where it can be bought , on dublins northside if possible ?

why do you want to buy ammonia may i ask ?

martin

Hi there,

Ammonia, (pure and free of fragrances or perfumes) can be bought from most hardware stores.

I have done a couple of fishless cycles with pure ammonia, that I bought from the hardware for about €3 a bottle, and you only need minute quantities if you're planning on using it for a fish less cycle.

Hope that helps!

Ken

chambers wrote:

Hi there,

Ammonia, (pure and free of fragrances or perfumes) can be bought from most hardware stores.

I have done a couple of fishless cycles with pure ammonia, that I bought from the hardware for about €3 a bottle, and you only need minute quantities if you're planning on using it for a fish less cycle.

Hope that helps!

Ken

how much do you add and on what timescale , eg every day , week etc .. ?


cheers

Its been a while since I last cycled a tank, but I got all my info off the net, just google "fish less cycle with ammonia"

One uses very little though, a eye dropper or syringe works great. But basically the idea is you add enough to bring your ammonia levels up to about 2, then leave it. You keep checking your ammonia levels, and once they drop to 0, you add ammonia again. You keep doing this until your aquarium is able to bring your ammonia levels down to zero in about 8 hours, at this stage you start checking your nitrites, which will probably be sky high!

Again you keep repeating the previous procedure adding ammonia till your nitrites are about 2, and your tank is able to cycle the nitrites down to zero in about 8 hours. Your tank should be fully cycled now.

I started off the cycle by using a "Cycle" or Microbe lift, I personally think the Microbe Lift is the better one, it smells like a sewage farm, but as far as I know most the LFS's use it themselves, I know FFF do!

So in a nutshell, once your tank is able to cycle down your ammonia and Nitrites down to zero from 10ppm in roughly 8 hours, your tank is cycled, remember to do a fairly big water change ie 35% or so to bring your NITRATES down to acceptable levels.

Many chemists still sell ammonium hydroxide.

I must say that I am not a great fan of this method though.
If, however, the fish-keeper realises that this method does not actually 'cycle' a tank, and takes great care, then it can be useful.

Also, much of the information on this method found on the web is wrong and misinformed (or is simply archaic incorrect beliefs). I would always be very suspect of an article that can't even get the very basic facts right first.

ian

igmillichip wrote:

Many chemists still sell ammonium hydroxide.

I must say that I am not a great fan of this method though.
If, however, the fish-keeper realises that this method does not actually 'cycle' a tank, and takes great care, then it can be useful.

Also, much of the information on this method found on the web is wrong and misinformed (or is simply archaic incorrect beliefs). I would always be very suspect of an article that can't even get the very basic facts right first.

ian

Thanks Ian .. So are you saying I should stick with the traditional cycle method ?

bmcg38 wrote:

igmillichip wrote:

Many chemists still sell ammonium hydroxide.

I must say that I am not a great fan of this method though.
If, however, the fish-keeper realises that this method does not actually 'cycle' a tank, and takes great care, then it can be useful.

Also, much of the information on this method found on the web is wrong and misinformed (or is simply archaic incorrect beliefs). I would always be very suspect of an article that can't even get the very basic facts right first.

ian

Thanks Ian .. So are you saying I should stick with the traditional cycle method ?

I wasn't exactly saying that, but just stating my own opinion on the subject.....and noting that anyone following the method should be aware that it is does not cycle the tank, but (at best) only addresses one item in keeping a healthy tank.

The other thing is that this is not a simple chemical reaction that takes place within the water.....it is a biochemical process: and for that you also need the bacteria to be in the water first. Now, that is not usually a problem as colonies will form eventually anyway.

ian

igmillichip wrote:

bmcg38 wrote:

igmillichip wrote:

Many chemists still sell ammonium hydroxide.

I must say that I am not a great fan of this method though.
If, however, the fish-keeper realises that this method does not actually 'cycle' a tank, and takes great care, then it can be useful.

Also, much of the information on this method found on the web is wrong and misinformed (or is simply archaic incorrect beliefs). I would always be very suspect of an article that can't even get the very basic facts right first.

ian

Thanks Ian .. So are you saying I should stick with the traditional cycle method ?

I wasn't exactly saying that, but just stating my own opinion on the subject.....and noting that anyone following the method should be aware that it is does not cycle the tank, but (at best) only addresses one item in keeping a healthy tank.

The other thing is that this is not a simple chemical reaction that takes place within the water.....it is a biochemical process: and for that you also need the bacteria to be in the water first. Now, that is not usually a problem as colonies will form eventually anyway.

ian

so are you saying trad method not ?

I have cycled a small tank before tradionally which worked fine , however like most I am seeing if there is a quicker and easier method out there

Hi Ian,

Can you suggest a good article on the subject? or point out the flaws in some of the not so good ones?
Only ask as I am in the process of writing an article on the subject for the beginners section and want to ensure its accurate Also plant on pointing out that the "cycling" process is not the be all and end all of maintaining a healthy tank.

Acknowledged that this is only a part of setting up a healthy tank, but it is a crucial part too. The intent of the process is to establish the bacterial in the tank / filter which will carry out the biochemical process that we all refer to as the nitrogen cycle. Without this processes obviously we, or more to the point, our fish are dead in the water. Obviously there is a lot more than just the nitrogen cycle involved in the maintenance of a healthy aquarium. Most of the experiences fish keepers here too are aware that it takes a long time to establish a stable environment in an aquarium and that it can be all too easy to mess up that balance.
I think the "cycling" of a tank referring only to getting the nitrogen cycle established is a crucial first step in the process. Obviously I would not suggest that we only monitor the levels of Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates in a new tank, we need to monitor ph too at a minimum to determine the stability of the environment and its suitability for the stock we plan to add to the tank. Obviously there are other parameters such as tds, GH, Kh that we could monitor too and it may be required to do so depending on the fish we keep.
Also well aware of the requirements for water changes, or some other means, to minimise the levels of nitrates in the tank environment. There are links between high nitrates and hole in the head disease for instance based on the impact of nitrates on the ability of haemoglobin to carry oxygen.

Cheers,

Bill.

It is the point about the 'cycled' meaning getting the nitrogen cycle in-place that is the issue.

There is no need to have a full nitrogen cycle at work within an aquarium as that is a much more ambitious subject.

However, for appropriate parts of the nitrogen cycle applicable to fish-keeping needs to go much further than is commonly portrayed.
In many respects, I wish that most articles would not attempt the theory at all: for me, if an attempt at theory is not correct then that does cast doubt on the authors ability to discuss such a complex process.
Hence, why I could not give a single decent link on the web for a single article. I've never found one; much is obviously copy-n-paste from previous mis-informed articles etc etc.

I would much prefer to see advise such as: set-up tank, add a bottle of 'bacteria', start small, feed little, do many regular partial water changes else you could kill your fish from ammonia, nitrite or nitrate poisoning that I would see incorrect attempts to detail mis-leading confidence in the 'known' facts.

If an article or product ever says something 'converts the harmless nitrate' then simply stop reading further and go elsewhere. (as just one example).

Things get complex when trying to dispel common myths.....and that confuses people. Ditto the same thing happens with 'Buffers' and pH etc.

In many respects that does feed into the old saying of a little knowledge is dangerous.

One does not need to have done a PhD in chemistry to keep fish; but splintered knowledge from that level will not beat good old-fashioned fish-keeping techniques.

Ian

Point well made Ian

I like your comment -

If an article or product ever says something 'converts the harmless nitrate' then simply stop reading further and go elsewhere. (as just one example).

I think 99% of the articles on the web refer to "Harmless" Nitrates

Cheers,

Bill.

Ian out of interest and in topic to this thread, can you tell us why you dont like using the Ammonia method for cycling?

As pointed out by Bill, there are many more parameters involved in a fully cycled tank, but getting the basics right of a sufficient colony of beneficial bacteria thats able to convert (for a lack of better words) Ammonia to Nitrites and Nitrites to Nitrates is the start of a cycle isnt it?

I ask this as my reason for originally having opted for a fishless cycle was the fact of not putting fish through undue stress in a tank high in ammonia and Nitrites. I would've thought that whether one uses fish, fish food or other ammonia producing bits or pure ammonia will give you the same result to kick off the cycle, perhaps with the aid of adding some beneficial bacteria in first.

I was also under the impression that due to the high amounts of ammonia and nitrites the tank is able to convert by the end of the cycle, (as apposed to using a few fish as a source of ammonia)one would be able to introduce a heavy stock of fish in one go, as there wont or should not be a biological overload on the filter as it is able to deal with even higher amounts of ammonia and nitrites already.

Personally I did this with a 400 liter malawi tank, and in aim to reduce aggression, I added a sizeable stock in one go, and it worked perfect, ammonia and nitrites stayed zero, but to be expected the nitrates climbed fairly quick due to a sizable stock, so regular water changes of sufficient amounts to keep nitrates in check.

Anyway, that was my experience, but would very interested to find out why you are not to keen on this method.

Ken

Normally, I would bring in such factors as RedoX, pH (and pH Buffering) and Hardness into being important factors in 'cycling' a tank. But that is just bringing in extra (but vital) components.

Certainly, all the above are not just additional to a discussion on 'cycling' but are important in driving the effectiveness of nitrogenous transformation.
If they ignored then the process of cycling may become unstable and cause either direct or indirect problems.

However, to go into where they act would make a discussion too 'multi-layered' (or complex in some people's eyes maybe).

With the nitrogen cycle being a cycle, then the starting point would need to be defined.
Having Ammonia as a 'starting point' is acceptable in some cases, but really a better place to start is ammonification (the production of ammonia).

Yes, the linear route of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate is a part of the cycle.....but it is only part of a cycle, and therefore not a cycle within itself.

That part itself can also go in reverse.....that needs addressing as you do not need the nitrates being converted to a mole equivalency of ammonia.

To get closer to a full nitrogenous cycling would take nearly a year (at least) and would still not be a true cycle.
What you would get is a bigger 'cycling network' in a mature system.
If your system is not poised to convert ammonia directly to nitrogen gas, or is not poised to convert nitrates to ammonia then the system is simply no where near cycled.

My belief is that few aquariums ever get to a nearly full state of being ' nearly cycled' or mature. If a tank is not at that position of maturity then the tank is poised to crash at many stages as it lacks general nitrogenous waste disposal buffering capacity.

I am not necessarily in agreement with stress being placed on a fish by not following an 'ammonia dosing' regime. Placing stress on a fish from ammonia is simply poor husbandry anyway......and that can be there with or without ammonia dosing.

In principle, the idea of having ammonia in a tank to act as a substrate for nitrosfying bacteria is sound. There is nothing wrong with that as that is a normal process anyway.

My problems with the method are more to do with the nonesense often written about the method.
Now, apart from the often incorrect science (most is incorrect, but we can ignore that here), there is often an end note saying 'now the tank is cycled, you can add fish': well, the tank is not cycled and it is also not really fit for fish either as other vitally important aspects have been ignored.
No more fit for fish than using a decent bottle of bacteria (I repeat, decent bottle and not one that uses competing bacteria to bulk it up), low stocking levels and light feeding.

An aspect of the ammonia dosing that I am concerned about is that there should be a specific section on safe handling ammonia (it is a killer of humans as well); most test kits available to fish keepers are pretty crap when it comes to dealing with such poentially high concentrations of ammonia in the first place; ammonia is also toxic to the nitrosofying and nitrifying bacteria.

The method of testing recommended in most articles is simply not good enough. That type of testing would not be accepted in a laboratory. Really, it should be stress tested as a proper titration and not just spot checks. The results should be graphed.
ie, because of the harshness of the starting point, it requires harsh following to be truly 'scientific' (which is, afterall, what it claims to be).

For myself, I've used the ammonia dosing method many years ago, but in reality I found that Marine systems where best done by the good old way of throwing in a prawn and leaving the tank for 6 to 8 weeks minimum before adding fish.....and that addresses a better starting point within the cycling network (ammonification as well as addressing starting the colony of bugs that can deal with rotting food).

So, it is really the articles on the subject that are very suspect. The doses should be calculated rather than being as random as they are often posted as.

Yes, of course it can work.....but it can also poise a tank for disaster or false confidence.

Ian

so are you saying trad method not ?

I have cycled a small tank before tradionally which worked fine , however like most I am seeing if there is a quicker and easier method out there[/quote]


If you're looking for a quick method, bring a 10L water container up to me at the weekend. I'll give you mature water from a tank that's been up and running (disease free) for about 4 years or so. I'll also give you a mature sponge from a Fluval plus filter that you can put straight into yours and you'll be pretty much ready to go.

I'd be afraid of my life going the ammonia route after reading Ian's posts.

Dave

Dave

I don't want to sound too harsh on any one method.

Over the years I've tried every method known, and developed some myself.

At present I use several methods depending upon the fish.
These include:
'bacteria in a bottle' (yes, that does work well);
using filter media from another tank;
preparing water in a well established tank and then using half of that for a new tank;
if the fish are small sensitive fish then they are housed in their original water (I ask the LFS for bigger bags and more water) with small top-ups over a few days mixed from a feeder tank and freshwater.

I also use bacteria in a bottle for all of the latter methods and add ammonia adsorbing zeolites with 'transferred water' (that being to avoid ammonia spikes with changing water conditions) or when doing a major water change or filter clean-out.

Many of my fish are extremely sensitive to ammonia, and so I never take chances. I also have some pretty fancy test equipment at my disposal, but even that only adds a small amount of confidence.

ian

DJK wrote:

so are you saying trad method not ?

I have cycled a small tank before tradionally which worked fine , however like most I am seeing if there is a quicker and easier method out there

If you're looking for a quick method, bring a 10L water container up to me at the weekend. I'll give you mature water from a tank that's been up and running (disease free) for about 4 years or so. I'll also give you a mature sponge from a Fluval plus filter that you can put straight into yours and you'll be pretty much ready to go.

I'd be afraid of my life going the ammonia route after reading Ian's posts.

Dave

Dave[/quote][/quote]

Thanks Dave , much appreciated again !

I actually wont be starting the ' cycle ' process for a few weeks as i wont be at home much over the next few weeks and dont want to leave the tank for someone else to look after , even if it only has a few danios in it .

However I will take you up on your offer in early July if thats ok ? Youve been great , thanks again .

Brian .