marine tanks HELP

hi all....back in febuary i bought myself a new tank,ive been cycling it for about six weeks now(3 with just water and 3 with live rock)and petmania has been caring out weekly tests for me on water quality,the water looks crystal clear and the live rock is looking amazing compared to what it looked like when i first got it,,,all water tests are testing good but on saturday i bought 3 damsels 2 cleaner shrimps and a goby after spending 3-4 hours trying to acclimatise two damsels died in the bag,the cleaner shrimps died shortly after being introduced into the tank and the goby comited suicide by keeping on swiming into the jets from the pump.........on monday i got the water checked again from another petstore...water was ok so again i got 2 clowns and a goby i emptied them into a bucket and slowly transfeed water from my tank into the bucket and all of them died still in the bucket......i spoke to the petshop and they cant understand it....is there anyway i could have something toxic in the tank thats not being tested for?????if so why does everything else look so good??????....has anybody any ideas i'd really appreciate any comments and help

Firstly, welcome to the forum.

What an unfortunate start you have had with keeping marines.

There are a number of points of note.

I am not sure what advice you got before buying and introducing fish.
If this is your first marine tank, then you wouldn't necessarily know what is good advice and what is not

There are a few things that could have killed the fish......either the water was not suitable for fish, or the acclimatisation was not up to scratch or the fish got overly stressed during the transport.

If the shop said your water was "perfect" then I personally wouldn't listen as "perfect" has no meaning to be honest.

It is unlikely that a shop will have test for all things that can kill your fish.

Was the live rock "cured" before hand? could it have died during the introduction and leaked toxic compounds? That is just one of many sources.

When acclimatising the fish, how was that done?

I would recommend equilibrating the temperature and then drip acclimatisation using an air-line with a knot in it (ie siphon from the tank to the bag). And not to rush that.....but you don't want your fish getting stressed either.

Make sure that the temperatures are the same between where the fish is being acclimatised and the tank water.

I would also recommend placing an inch square of Polyfilter in the fish bag whilst bring drip-acclimatised.

With little other data, I would be clutching at straws that would make a long list of guesses in this specific case.

ian

thanks ian i'll try give the drip feed try next

i had a few issues with the live rock it wasnt cured and had a few critters hiding out in it..some died and all the water clouded up but that was a while ago spent a long time cleaning it and if you look at the live rock and water now all looks purfect....all the usaual test have been done and every thing looks good...

so before i try and introduce any more fish...what else can i test for and try???

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_aquarium#Water_testing
A fair amount.ofreading for you to do there Chris
Ive not got alot of experience of marine myself, but theres agreat deal of information on water chemistry
And acclimation contained in the link provided above

@carlowchris.....I would recommend that you introduce one fish first before attempting anymore.

There is a common myth that a standard water test can tell if the tank is fully "cycled". Simply testing the water with a water test will not tell if the tank is mature.

Compounds such as phenols should be tested, but I bet few can do that. And there are so many other chemicals that should also be tested but aren't.

For your water to kill the fish so fast, the water would need to have a substantial amount of poison in it.

Hence, my first bet would be to review the way the fish are introduced.

And, buy some PolyFilter to add when introducing new stock if the true maturity of the tank is in doubt.....for what is little outlay in money, it gives a buffering to the filtration system if the system is not truly up-to-scratch.

ian

igmillichip wrote:

Firstly, welcome to the forum.

What an unfortunate start you have had with keeping marines.

There are a number of points of note.

I am not sure what advice you got before buying and introducing fish.
If this is your first marine tank, then you wouldn't necessarily know what is good advice and what is not

There are a few things that could have killed the fish......either the water was not suitable for fish, or the acclimatisation was not up to scratch or the fish got overly stressed during the transport.

If the shop said your water was "perfect" then I personally wouldn't listen as "perfect" has no meaning to be honest.

It is unlikely that a shop will have test for all things that can kill your fish.

Was the live rock "cured" before hand? could it have died during the introduction and leaked toxic compounds? That is just one of many sources.

When acclimatising the fish, how was that done?

I would recommend equilibrating the temperature and then drip acclimatisation using an air-line with a knot in it (ie siphon from the tank to the bag). And not to rush that.....but you don't want your fish getting stressed either.

Make sure that the temperatures are the same between where the fish is being acclimatised and the tank water.

I would also recommend placing an inch square of Polyfilter in the fish bag whilst bring drip-acclimatised.

With little other data, I would be clutching at straws that would make a long list of guesses in this specific case.

ian

+1 top advice there chris! Did the petshop tell you to acclimate this fish in the bag for 3-4 hours? in a small bit of water like that ammonia can skyrocket and seriously cause the fish a lot of problems. they can come under a lot of stress and if the bag was not opened or not bagged correctly that can starve of oxygen also. once again its all presumptive guess work here and without being there its hard to tell as igmillichip said.

once ph, temp and salinity are matched there should be no reason your fish should have any issues in your tank unless as igmillichip mentioned there is a serious pollution issue from somewhere. go back to the petstore and ask them to test ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph before adding anymore fish to the system.

what water are you using in the tank? do you treat it with water conditioner if its from the tap? whats the temp? whats the salinity? check all the fundamentals of the tank are in check, theres a wire getting crossed somewhere.

hi ya..made a trip to maidenhead yesterday,,,they also did all the usaul tests ammonia,nitrate,nitrite,salinity,ph said all looked fine but they did adise me to beef up my sand bed with proper live sand,which is now in the tank and ill be going back tommorrow to get a wavemaker,,,, the guy in the petshop says i dont need one but they dont sell them and the guy in maidenheaad says i do need one,so for what they cost to be on the safe side,im going to get one,....the guy in maidenhead was really helpfull and honestly i could spent all day there its a fantastic store....the general theory seems to be that although i did try and pick the most hardest of fish,,it was my acclimbatiseation that was a fault.....repoisitioned all my live rock today....so im back waiting for the cloud to go.

Good man Chris
If you had asked me id a told ya to put a wave maker in aswell!
Hope thats an end to your issues! The 130d is the a nice tank!!

Talk soon
Neil

Personally, I wouldn't see a wavemaker as being needed (or essential) unless you're going for livestock that really needs that system.

Money spent elsewhere on the system may be better spent in my opinion.

There are some basic minimal pieces of equipment and sundries, and there additional ones that can come along later to put the icing on the cake or make life easier (but are not essential).

When buying the fish, give an indication of how far away you live and the time you expect the fish to be in the bags. That may help the shop determine an appropriate bagging system.
If I happen to be buying a lot of different types of fish for different tanks at one time, then I specify the number of fish in each bag and the size of the bag I want as I know that some specimens will be in the bags for longer. I don't give the shop an option in such cases.

In essence, there is a balance between not allowing the fish stress in the bags and making sure the water are as well balanced as is possible before transferring the new fish.

I'll re-iterare.....take it easy at first and gain the skills of transferring the fish. If done properly, it won't take long before it is routine.

Best of luck. Keep us all up to speed on the development of the tank, and remember the marine keeping hobby did not start decades ago by everyone instantly knowing what to do and how to introduce fish: mistakes were made and the hobby learned a few things.

ian

igmillichip wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't see a wavemaker as being needed (or essential) unless you're going for livestock that really needs that system.

Money spent elsewhere on the system may be better spent in my opinion.

There are some basic minimal pieces of equipment and sundries, and there additional ones that can come along later to put the icing on the cake or make life easier (but are not essential).

When buying the fish, give an indication of how far away you live and the time you expect the fish to be in the bags. That may help the shop determine an appropriate bagging system.
If I happen to be buying a lot of different types of fish for different tanks at one time, then I specify the number of fish in each bag and the size of the bag I want as I know that some specimens will be in the bags for longer. I don't give the shop an option in such cases.

In essence, there is a balance between not allowing the fish stress in the bags and making sure the water are as well balanced as is possible before transferring the new fish.

I'll re-iterare.....take it easy at first and gain the skills of transferring the fish. If done properly, it won't take long before it is routine.

Best of luck. Keep us all up to speed on the development of the tank, and remember the marine keeping hobby did not start decades ago by everyone instantly knowing what to do and how to introduce fish: mistakes were made and the hobby learned a few things.

ian

+1 not sure why a wave maker was advised to you, seems like a bit of an unnecessary purchase right now considering there should be expenditure made elsewhere. a circulation power head inside the system would have looked after your needs for a fraction of the price. do you have a skimmer yet? do a little more research before you go shopping again and do be swayed into impulse buys haha although weve all done it myself included

ian's advice on acclimating the fish is about as perfect you can get! best of luck in the future and i hope youl reap the rewards of this fantastic hobby.

thanks...i was advised into getting a wave maker cause of the ramdom functions of where the water would be cirulated in the tank..i have a rsm130d and using the stock skimmer that came with it but at the mo it doesnt really seem doing much except passing water through it,,,went on redseas web site and due to fact there is so little in tank that appears to be normal???????


id be quite lucky where i live as im only 40 mins from seahorse aquariums,10 mins from maidenhead and only 5 mins away from petmania so i dont think its the travel,,,i do believe it was my fault acclimbatising the fish and will following ians method next time


the waters starting to clear up now,i'll try testing it tommorrow and have think about what to do next

You could have been talking about a Maidenhead aquatics in the UK....uber long journey

The skimmer will take time to stabilise and start to do anything.
You may then need to go back to the skimmer and make adjustments to get the "perfect" "skim" after the skimmer has settled-in and you have the livestock producing stuff for the skimmer to skim.

How long and how to adjust would depend on what type of skimmer you have and how much crap is being produced. But that can come later.

Again, although they are not essential to keeping marines, it would be that additional piece of equipment that I would strongly recommend coming next after the tank, heater and filter (and lights if you have corals etc). Prices are not silly money for smallish skimmers anyway.
So, it is good you have that.

If you fancy a wave-maker, then why not put that into the next phase of marine keeping.....ie the D.I.Y. phase.
Now, don't jump into the DIY part of marine keeping just yet, but it is something to think towards in the future.
I like DIY because when I started keeping marines nearly all of the equipment commonly used today was DIY back then.

ian

Ok water was looking good.done another test...ph 7.8...nitrite 0...nitrate 0 but ammonia really high 8.... could this be due to the live sand that went in the other day?????at this point now I'm wondering if I should just buy my water instead of mixing it,although salinty is good 1.021... I've no ammo lock or water mixed up at the mo so it will have to wait till morning but with such a high reading of ammonia its a good job there's no fish in there.

Is that 8ppm (8mg/l) ammonia?

Either you test kit is up the spout or you're trying to make bleach for a hairdressing salon.

Making up your own water is unlikely to cause, in itself, such a high ammonia level.

I'm not going to guess as to whether the live sand died and polluted the tank....it may have done, it may have not done.

Whatever the story, re-check that ammonia reading and, if it is repeated, then you are way off being able to introduce any fish.

Maybe that pH needs to be looked at....and double check what the pH is from the shop you are planning on getting your fish.

ian

8 ppm....brand new test kit..done the test twice and followed instructions to the letter.....using the same api kit now that the shop uses and when I watched them test the water they only bearly turned the water over.and a couple of seconds later said it was ok...the instructions say to shake vigorously and then wait five mins......somethings wrong some where.......water looks clear,if ammonia was that high would it not be a bit cloudy?????

carlowchris wrote:

8 ppm....brand new test kit..done the test twice and followed instructions to the letter.....using the same api kit now that the shop uses and when I watched them test the water they only bearly turned the water over.and a couple of seconds later said it was ok...the instructions say to shake vigorously and then wait five mins......somethings wrong some where.......water looks clear,if ammonia was that high would it not be a bit cloudy?????

Cloudiness has nothing to do with ammonia in itself.

Ammonia in water is clear.

You could pour concentrated ammonia solution from a chemistry lab into your water and the water would still remain clear (unless it happens to react with something that happens to produce a cloudy product).

At a reading of 8ppm, it would take a massive water change to get that down to low level. Forget 50% or 70% or 90% change as they are simply too small and would not get you anywhere near an acceptable level.
Even a 99% change would do very little if that reading is real.

I would add some bacteria-in-a-bottle style stuff to help seed the biological filtration.

Your first step in Marines has not gone to well, but don't give up.....it does take time.

ian

Ok got a little circulation pump today,nothing fancy but for 30 euro its got to help,about to do 20% water change,again won't solve everything but got to help.tested new water 0 ppm so test lit is good..removed the polyfilter and the active carbon so I'm really hoping now on the bio filter to start kicking in...and I've got some new colombo bacteria...hopefully well see some difference but we'll see tomorrow.

You've had a bad time m8 and fair play to you to stay positive. As everyone has said before your ammonia is too high. Did you have any form of water circulation pump in the tank at an earlier stage ? To have a full cycle you need the live-rock fully cured (no smell at all), have plenty of water flow/current in the tank to enable the live-rock to do its job and then a skimmer to remove any waste left. For my first livestock I only introduced a "cuc" and waited to see if all was fine then one fish at a time starting with the most docile and let them settle. Most of all read and read more and be patient very patient or more cash will be wasted. Good luck.

hi ya,the rsm has 2 circulation pumps it cirulates the water 10x an hour but there only on one side of the tank,i got a litttle fluval pump(its no more than a little fan really)and ive posisted it on the other side of tank,,,,came come today to find the skimmer had really kicked in and now the whole tanl is full of micro bubbles but with this i can actually see now that the water is be circulated all around the tank..


done a test
ammoia still 8ppm
nitrite 0.25ppm
nitrate 0ppm
ph 7.8

the only question is?????

do i do another water change ??? and add more bacteria
or do i add more bacteria on its own????
or do i just leave it alone????

and what do i do about that skimmer...will it settle down or am i better off turning it off till we have the water good?????

am i right in thinking the other day when i got high ammonia levels and no nitrate or nitrite that the cycle had crashed?????now i have a little nitrite could it starting to cycle again,


what can i do?????

although salinty is good 1.021


just a little heads up on salinity you should be looking to have it at 1.025 thats what most shops would have it at and if your acclimating a fish from .025 to .021 thats not good for the fish or the lent of time its going to take to do it slowly

carlowchris wrote:

hi ya,the rsm has 2 circulation pumps it cirulates the water 10x an hour but there only on one side of the tank,i got a litttle fluval pump(its no more than a little fan really)and ive posisted it on the other side of tank,,,,came come today to find the skimmer had really kicked in and now the whole tanl is full of micro bubbles but with this i can actually see now that the water is be circulated all around the tank..


done a test
ammoia still 8ppm
nitrite 0.25ppm
nitrate 0ppm
ph 7.8

the only question is?????

do i do another water change ??? and add more bacteria
or do i add more bacteria on its own????
or do i just leave it alone????

and what do i do about that skimmer...will it settle down or am i better off turning it off till we have the water good?????

am i right in thinking the other day when i got high ammonia levels and no nitrate or nitrite that the cycle had crashed?????now i have a little nitrite could it starting to cycle again,


what can i do?????

Id leave it alone with the skimmer on and let it sort it self out check the water every 2 days till its perfect number 1 rule in saltwater, slow down take your time and, it will come together so chillax and enjoy ur live rock for now see if you can spot any hichickers

ok after a lot of water changes and alot of tests i decided to try and find where the ammonia was comming from....seperated the live rock,and filters into seperate buckets and left the live sand in tank......well that didnt work...still had ammonia comming off everything..


so the decision was made to start again



100% water change and using all red sea gear and taest kits

day 4 now and all is looking good,algae off live rock is receeding,skimmer a load of crap out(god knows where that came from)and micro bubbles have claimed down a lot and all tests are looking good


i know im really back at the start of cycling my tank again and its probly a bit soon to be thinking that all is well but the general theory seems to be that i mucked up the last time by putting in the ammo lock and just trying to move too fast and tank moving the opposite direction and slowing me down.

i suppose its better i learn these things now than have the tank crash after its fully stocked

A bit of a nightmare you've had from the start if it was me i probably would have stripped it back to the start too the only advice i can offer from now would leave it alone for the next few weeks and add nothing at all just do tests every few days till everything is 100% then wait another week or so while doing more tests then i would add 2 hardy fish and monitor the tank every day for week then you could stretch it to every 2 days for a week then add a clean up crew and then start on your fish list very slowly very slowly

well waters been cycling for a few weeks now and all looked good so in went the clean up crew about a week ago but still got loads of green alge so an alge blennie and a small goby are being drip feed at the mo and hopefully will be in the tank before the nights out


before i added the clean up crew i added some live copepods which i presume the cleaner smimp and fire smirmp are eating cause they dont seem at all interested in the mysis srimp im putting in for them,,,which i then have to get back out again,,

but alls testing good now and everythings alive and looking promising for the mo

would a goby eat a sexy shrimp?????

introduced the goby and blennie earlier and the two were just sat looking at each other...so i put the little one to bed came back down and gobbies still sitting there but no sign of the sexy shrimp....i still have the lights off in the tank.....hgopefully he'll turn up

sexy shrimp alive and well...when i got him he was red...he then turned white and brown and has now turned himself green......how cool is that????