CO2 via Fire Extinguisher.

Hi, I have read all of the warnings re the above so I am aware of the side affects of stupidity but am curious as to how many members have used this type of setup in a planted Aquarium and about their experiences.


www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=266&start=0

Kev.

It's not mentioned properly in that thread, but this is quite important:



CO2 IS JUST AS LETHAL IN CONFINED SPACES AS CO (carbon monoxide) IS.
IT CAN KILL YOU AS EASILY AS IT CAN KILL YOUR FISH.

Leaks are BAD!

(Other than the othercommon issues with handling pressurised gas cyilnders.......)

After browsing net and chcking different options and comments and also being recommanded to use fire extinguishers instead of proper cylinders, I came to the conclution:NO for Fire Extinguishers in fish tank due to security reasons. Maybe I exagerate but if the dangerous gas (and do doubt CO2 is dangerous) outfolw is regulated by a package tape, there is no way to control it!! I would not risk my life.

threrefor I decided to buy such brand new set with cylinder homologation up to 2010, that cost me 100 euro plus delivery:

Thanks for the replies, @Katherine, did you click the link? Where is the packing tape on the set-up? What is it supposed to be holding together? Ah , I think you mean it holds the lever down, that isn't dangerous in any way, if the tape didn't work the CO2 would just shut off, not in the slightest way dangerous. The flow to your Tank is regulated the same way as yours, via the valves/regulator. The plastic mesh on your Tank is to stop the cannisters rubbing or banging together in transit and you can remove it , it serves no other purpose.

@ murph. You place the head of the Extinguisher in soapy water to test for leaks, you ensure that seals are free from leaks by applying ptfe tape. I haven't heard of anyone dying while using CO2 to put out a Fire where all of the CO2 is expelled into a room within a few seconds.

Kev.

Sorry if this is going a bit off topic,just trying to show what can go wrong with a fire extinguisher.I recall in 2002 in NZ,a fire extinguisher fell over,it ended up going off like a rocket,through 2 walls and away down the fields.It injured a man,and killed a woman in her early 30's.
That's the only time I ever heard of something going wrong with one.I have put out some seriouds fires using co2 extinguishers,and suffered no ill effects,although I wasnt overwhelmed with fumes.
A plant C02 and a fire extinguisher are both pressurised C02 cylinders,just have something different painted on the outside.I guess the morale of the story,is whichever method you chose(and dedicated plant c02 cylinders can go wrong too)just be careful.

murph wrote:

It's not mentioned properly in that thread, but this is quite important:



CO2 IS JUST AS LETHAL IN CONFINED SPACES AS CO (carbon monoxide) IS.
IT CAN KILL YOU AS EASILY AS IT CAN KILL YOUR FISH.

Leaks are BAD!

(Other than the othercommon issues with handling pressurised gas cyilnders.......)

That is not true (the bit in bold block capitals)

But, yes, confined spaces introduces an special added risk to anything…..including increasing risks to pregnant persons, increasing risks to persons of differing abilities etc etc.

It was good to note the caveat on confined spaces.

Whilst it is true that Carbon Dioxide is a poison and will act by way of suffocation by displacing or reducing the partial pressure of oxygen in the atmosphere, and it will cause dilation of the brain at high concentrations (which will kill), it is not on the same toxicity level as Carbon Monoxide which will also act to suffocate by displacement of oxygen, but is a highly potent respiratory poison at rather low levels.

If we are talking about an exploding gas canister then it is the pressurised canister that is the topic and not necessarily the contents…… else it is a bit like comparing a 2 tonne truck dropping on you as being as lethal as taking a cyanide tablet. Not really a proper comparison.

To someone standing inside a nuclear reactor during a hydrogen explosion, the effects on survival are about the same as it being a nuclear explosion. But that doesn’t mean hydrogen is as lethal as a nuclear radiation per se.

But, having stated that, the use of carbon dioxide cylinders, as with any pressurised container, needs very special care.
There is also the potential for frost-bite if not used with care.

That is what the warning should have been about.

I personally, however, think that using a fire-extinguisher for aquatic plant fertilisation use is not a great idea from a safety point of view and from a practical point of view (how to control that high pressure safely) when one considers that alternative sources of carbon dioxide are available.

Ian

OK, back to my original Question, what I want to know is, about how many members have used this type of setup in a planted Aquarium and about THEIR experiences.

As I have already said, I already know of the possible dangers and the link also reflects on these possibilities, I just want feedback on how good/bad it was etc.

www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=266&start=0

Kev.

I have 3 of them(2kg and 5kg) in my house feeding tanks and 2 spare ones in the shed and been using them for a while now.
All of FE that I've got were pressure tested.
I know all the risk regarding pressurised CO2 but they are around everywhere you will not find a building without one except your house.
Saying that it still must be handled with care as if dropped directly on the valve it most likely will go through the wall. In regards to leaks there are safety pressure valves installed also the sound that it makes when it is leaking is too loud not to notice.
Many companies(JBL, Denerle) do sell CO2 cylinder and they are no different from FE apart from fancy logo and price tag.
At the moment I don't see any alternative to pressurised CO2.

Much appreciated, thank you for that. Any chance you could give a break down of what you have equipment wise and how you hooked it all up, how long it lasts etc?



Kev.

Oopps.
I meant in the un-noticible/ detectible to human senses as opposed to concentration levels.
Sorry for the confusion. Cheers Ian!

I used to use the old Soda Stream (drinks machine) cannisters,before the aqua products were so readily available. Guess it works on same principal,just watch ur gauges and valves,be vigilant. co2 is co2. (just don't suck on it,ya should be alright) All these scientists,i don't know...... ha.

Hi all,

Ive used homemade F/E co2 systems on two of my tanks in the past with no problems at all.

There are things you should consider tho.......!!!!

1) First make sure the F/E is securely tied up so it cant fall over, I have seen a 5kg go off on a site and it caused mayhem there is no stopping it till it runs out. So think what it would do it a in your house....!!!

2) Buy a dual gauge reg with a solenoid valve and run it on a timer saves so much hastle.

3) Also buy a co2 controller makes running a co2 system so easy. You can get a good one ebay for a fraction of the price you see them in the shops at. This is the one ive just got

cgi.ebay.ie/PH-201-Digital-PH-Controller...&hash=item3a5d1b0db2

Alan

Our new delievery.Cannister is refillable,but its a small tank,so we are looking into getting a bigger CO2 tank.

Where in Dublin could supply us with a bigger C02 tank of around 2kg?

Are there any CO2 specialsist companies in Dublin??

Thanks

PJD30, check in here: www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/fforu...it?limit=30&start=30
Good luck - nice set, pH controller is just another 'gadget' I would love to add to my CO2 system

Katherine wrote:

PJD30, check in here: www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/fforu...it?limit=30&start=30
Good luck - nice set, pH controller is just another 'gadget' I would love to add to my CO2 system

Thanks for that.

Can I just confirm with you that it is PURE CO2 (no additives) that we need for the tank??

Thanks.

Yes, it should be Pure but generally there is no difference between consumable CO2 and technical. As far as I know the difference is in cylinder's inside itself. If you tell you need it for fish tank they will know what to fill in it.

Sometimes CO2 is mixed with Argon which will kill your fish and plants. If you are asked about argon say: NO, thanks. I don't know if I exagerate but I would not accept used canister if I knew it was used with argon before.

Hope I helped you.

OK my setups are pretty simple. More or less the same as the on in the link.
Here are the details:

Rio 400l tank:
5kg cylinder > dual gauge regulator > solenoid > one way valve > co2 atomizer

15l & 30l tanks:
2 or 5kg cylinder > dual gauge regulator > solenoid > two way splitter with bubble counters > one way valves > ceramic diffusers

60l tank:
5kg cylinder > dual gauge regulator > solenoid > one way valve > co2 atomizer

All solenoids are connect to timers.

The cylinders last from 2 to 6 months it really boils down how mad I go about light period and also if there are any fish/shrimps in the tank. BTW. Shrimps are more sensitive to co2 than fish.
I have ph controller but don't use it as I think it is useless in the planted tank.

Katherine wrote:

Yes, it should be Pure but generally there is no difference between consumable CO2 and technical. As far as I know the difference is in cylinder's inside itself. If you tell you need it for fish tank they will know what to fill in it.

Sometimes CO2 is mixed with Argon which will kill your fish and plants. If you are asked about argon say: NO, thanks. I don't know if I exagerate but I would not accept used canister if I knew it was used with argon before.

Hope I helped you.

Yes,you have helped me indeed.

I will give Doyle and Doyle a call in the morning and price up a new and full 2kg or maybe a 5kg Co2 cannister.

I will probably buy a new/fresh tank and play it safe that way.

Ok,so it will cost more,but its better than a potential dead tank full of plants and fish.

Tanks again.

I'm really very interested in their price quotation for 2kg bottle to compare with price I paid for mine. I spent less then 45 euro plus delivery (but it was delivery of the system and full range of EasyLife products...) so cost was spread over more stuff.

NosIreland, do you have ;your tanks in different rooms? I am just wondering why you have so many cylinders and system when it could be run from one cylinder if the lighting periods are the same. Distance between tanks and lighting periods will explain me that. I would probably went into bancroupcy with so many tanks, but would be happy having them!!!

Just off the phone to Doyle and Doyle about new CO2 tank prices.

a new fully filled 2kg tank is 50 euro plus vat

A new fully filled 5kg tank is 75 euro plus vat.

Both are pure Co2.

The chap I spoke to,said that they are getting a lot of business from people with aquariamms these days.

pjd30 - so prices are really reasonable! If I manage I'll paste this info into the topic about CO2 filling places if you don't mind.

Draco - yes pubs do have consumable CO2 but I am not familiar with pubs and pubs managers... I don't know if pubs have their own filling stations to fill smaller canisters from the ones they are supplied with. Moreover not every pub is willing to share with their supplies. It is always good to have a professional service located in case you do not get into 'closer cooperation/relation' with your pub.

Normally, the supplier of the beverage supplies the propellant, ie, CO2


Kev.

Katherine wrote:

NosIreland, do you have ;your tanks in different rooms? I am just wondering why you have so many cylinders and system when it could be run from one cylinder if the lighting periods are the same. Distance between tanks and lighting periods will explain me that. I would probably went into bancroupcy with so many tanks, but would be happy having them!!!

Yes the tanks are in different rooms, unfortunately I don’t have a fish room
Also in that case I would have to look for bigger cilinder as 5Kg would not last long.

You can get cylinders from Welders Merchants, they will also have the facility to refill.
I took my JBL cylinders to a merchant recently. He did fill them but was a little apprehensive as he is supposed to supply me with new or recognised cylinders that have been tested and certified as such.
ATB
C

Katherine wrote:

pjd30 - so prices are really reasonable! If I manage I'll paste this info into the topic about CO2 filling places if you don't mind.

No problems,fire away so.

Just thought this makes an interesting read, can anyone explain the functions of the Knobs on a Regulator.

CO2 in the aquarium

Georg Jander (GEORG.JANDER at cereon.com)

Anyone who has observed the explosive growth of aquarium plants in response to carbon dioxide (CO2) fertilization must be convinced of the usefulness of this system. Certainly, there are thousands of aquarium hobbyists who do not give their plants any sort of special treatment and still end up with a fairly nice display. However, truly luxuriant growth, the sort that you see on the covers of aquarium magazines and in pictures of "Dutch aquariums," can only be achieved by fertilizing with CO2.
During photosynthesis, plants use light energy to capture CO2. This CO2 is used to build the basic carbon structures from which all plant material is made. In a poorly lit aquarium, light is likely to be what limits the rate of plant growth. The amount of CO2 produced by fish- and bacterial respiration is more than enough to allow photosynthesis under these conditions. If on the other hand, you try to make your plants grow faster by adding more light, it is likely that there will not be enough CO2 in your aquarium. The plants simply can not grow as fast as they would like to, given the available light energy.

The easiest way to increase the amount of CO2 in an aquarium is to buy a tank of CO2 and let it bubble into the water. Several, mostly German, companies sell systems for adding CO2 into the outflow of your canister filter. If you buy your CO2 system from someone like Dupla, you are likely to spend about $300. That seems a bit pricey, doesn't it? Fortunately, it is very easy and also a fair bit cheaper to buy a CO2 tank at a local welding supply place and use it to bubble CO2 into the water.

CO2 in the tank is under high pressure. A pressure regulator brings this pressure down to a manageable level, and ordinary aquarium air valves can be used to regulate the flow to individual aquariums. [Editor's note: this is counter to general net-experience. Most of us end up installing a fine-metering needle valve after the normal regulator in order to regulate the flow down to a few bubbles per second, because normal aquarium air valves do not have good enough control.] The CO2 reactor is simply a small chamber that allows the CO2 to be dissolved in the water before it escapes into the air. Outflow from a filter or a pump enters the top of the reactor; CO2 is bubbled in from the bottom. To give the CO2 more time to dissolve, one can add a system of baffles to trap the gas as it is moving up. Near the top of the reactor, there should be a small hole to vent other gases, which may be present in small amounts in the compressed CO2. These gases do not dissolve as readily in water as CO2 does.

I purchased my CO2 tank and regulator at Wesco on Vassar Street in Cambridge. Their current (May 1992) prices are: 5 lbs CO2, $52.50, refill $9.74; 20 lbs CO2, $101.75, refill $19.55. A CO2 pressure regulator is "$79 and change." People who have better welding connections than I do might be able to get things more cheaply than that. [Editor's note: look in the PLANT RESOURCES section for more current prices and good inexpensive sources.] Refills are generally not a very big expense. My 20 lb CO2 tank is used on three aquariums (30, 65, and 110 gallons) and lasts about three years between refills. That works out to about $2 per aquarium per year. Other possible sources of CO2 that I have not investigated are CO2 fire extinguishers and the CO2 canisters they use to put the bubbles in beer and soft drinks. Don't bother trying to rig up something with dry ice, it is too complicated.

The tubing and valves that I use for my CO2 setup are the sort that one buys for use with the aquarium air pumps. It is better to get the brass rather than the plastic valves, since it is easier to make fine adjustments with them and they also tend to leak less. Even a tiny leak can empty out a gas tank distressingly quickly. I check all of my valves and connections with a soap solution and make sure that no bubbles appear.

The CO2 reactor can easily be constructed out of any wide bore tube. I use the lift tubes from an undergravel filter in my aquariums. Local aquarium enthusiast Jim Bardwell does well with the top half of a one-liter coke bottle, with the filter hose attached to where the cap should be. It is best to use a clear plastic, so that one can see what is happening inside. Baffles, designed to let the water cascade down in one direction and to trap the CO2 moving in the other direction, are helpful, but not absolutely necessary. I make my baffles out of foam cubes that I cut to the right size and shape to fit inside the tube. Jim simply lets the CO2 collect at the top of the reactor, where the water is coming in. He does not have a vent and does not seem to have a problem with excess gas accumulating.

While a small increase in the amount of CO2 in the water causes lush plant growth, too much CO2 can prove to be toxic. CO2 dissolved in water forms carbonic acid (H2CO3). With weakly buffered water, like what comes out of the tap in the Boston area, adding too much CO2 can bring the pH down to as low as 3. That is not quite as acidic as Coca Cola, but about equal to vinegar. Naturally, this can cause death or other serious reactions in your fish and plants.

One can buy CO2 test kits that measure the actual level of CO2 in the water, but measuring the pH and counting the bubbles in the CO2 reactor works just about as well. It is best to start off by adding CO2 very slowly (about one to three bubbles per minute) and increasing the rate until a small, but measurable drop in pH is achieved. In my 30-gallon aquarium, I add one bubble of CO2 every three to four seconds to bring the pH from 7 to between 6 and 6.5. How much CO2 one needs to add varies from aquarium to aquarium and can depend on several factors: the size of the aquarium, how fast the plants are growing, the number of fish, how much food is decaying on the bottom, the buffering capacity of the water, the types of rock and gravel, and how well ventilated the surface of the water is. However, anything in the range of one bubble every two to fifteen seconds seems to work pretty well. Bubble size will vary with the diameter of the tubing. I am referring to the sort of bubbles that come out of the end of ordinary, one eighth inch inside diameter aquarium air tubing.

By using a CO2 reactor, you are saturating the water with CO2, and any excessive agitation of the water surface or bubbling of air through the water will cause the CO2 to escape into the atmosphere, just about as quickly as you can add it. Thus, at least during the day, you should *not* have an airstone or an undergravel filter turned on. If you have a plant aquarium, you should probably not be using an undergravel filter, anyway, since most kinds of plants do better without one. When the lights are on, plants use CO2 and produce oxygen. In my tanks, so much oxygen is being produced, that I can often see it forming streams of bubbles from the plants. At night, on the other hand, the plants are actually using oxygen (and not CO2) If there are not too many fish in the aquarium, then the oxygen produced by the plants during the day will tide everyone over until the next morning. However, if you notice that your fish are gasping at the surface in the mornings, they are obviously running out of oxygen. To remedy this problem, you can simply turn on an air stone when the lights go out. This will keep up the oxygen level and remove excess CO2. I have the aquarium lights and an air pump on two separate timers; when one turns on, the other one turns off. It would also be fairly easy to rig up a solenoid valve for the CO2 supply and have it turn the CO2 on and off with the same timer that is regulating the lights.

The system that I have described here and use is a very basic one that works well. For those who like those sorts of things, the automation possibilities are almost limitless. My brother Albrecht, who is an electronics whiz, has his entire aquarium run by a TRS-80 computer. Among many other things, the computer measures the pH, adds more CO2 if the pH is above a predetermined level, and sounds an alarm if the CO2 tank is running low. Fortunately, you don't need all of that to have a truly great-looking plant tank. There are more than thirty kinds of thriving plants in my aquariums; I have to weed out bunches once a week, and I have enough extras to supply all of my aquarium friends and still sell some at the monthly BAS auction. The fish are also doing well and reproducing.

CO2 makes it easy to grow aquarium plants, but it is not a cure-all. You still have to observe some of the other essentials of proper plant care. Aquarium plants need a lot of light. When using fluorescent bulbs, I usually figure about four watts per gallon. Wide-spectrum plant and aquarium bulbs seem to work better than the "soft white" ones that you can buy at the hardware store. The amount of iron in most aquariums is too low for maximum plant growth. I supplement the iron by adding "Micronized Iron" to the canister filter (about one teaspoon at every cleaning) and "Ortho Greenol" directly to the water (two drops per ten gallons per day). Both of these are available at gardening stores. Other nutrients and trace elements that your plants need are usually taken care of when you feed the fish and do water changes (frequently). Also, don't forget the regular sacrifices of goat entrails to the aquarium gods, at midnight when the moon is full.

Kev.

stretnik wrote:

Just thought this makes an interesting read, can anyone explain the functions of the Knobs on a Regulator.

Basically if there are two knobs then one is for high pressure and the other one is for low pressure. The low pressure one is usually a needle valve. Needle valve allows to adjust co2 output more accurately and believe me you need that accuracy. With high and low pressure valves you have more control.
Also I've read somewhere that needle valve protect from co2 dump but don't know if that is true.

I’ve also tried single gauge, single valve high pressure regulator and my advice is to stay away from them. They are cheap but setting them up is a nightmare.
Many regulators that I see on sale now are dual gauge and single valve needle regulators. These are OK you have less control compared to dual valve but they are fine.

FWIW, that article is 19 years old!

Little has changed today and the application of CO2 and it's effects remain the same.

Kev.