Hypancistrus L411 problems

I have been breeding Hypancistrus sp. Monte Dourado L411 since the start of October.
The pair are so perfectly mannered when it comes to breeding it is unreal.
The female goes to the entrance of the cave, he reverses out allowing her to enter. Once she is comfy at the back of the cave he joins her.
It is all very gentle, he dosent beat the hell out of her like pleco's normally do. Sometimes it's so rough the male can kill the female.

All was going well untill the last two batches of young. The second last batch had about 50 young, a very large batch for this pleco.
After about a month they were still yellow/orange underneath. It was like part of the eggsac was still there but this is normally gone within a week.
The temp. was 26c (78f) which is fine for the parents, PH a constant 6.5 and a total hardness of 2.2dH.
They were fed on Tetra tabimin which was perfect as a first food with the other young L411 i have.
The tank was bare with 3 sponge filters, plenty of aeration and the heater.
After scratching my head for a bit i figured it was either the temp. was to low for the young or the lack of wood in the tank.
Even though they are carnivores they eat wood at a young age.
So i slowly upped the temp to 28c (82f) and added some wood. It wasn't long before there was evidence that they were eating the wood.
I taught i had the problem solved but after a couple more weeks they still weren't developing properly.
I decided to cull all of this batch since there was no point in raising bad fish. 2 drops of clove oil in 5Ltr's of water put them to sleep without stress.

In the mean time the male was sitting on another batch of eggs. So i prepared the tank again and placed him with the cave and eggs in to the tank.
The water was the same as before PH6.5, temp. 28c and 2.2dH.
I also added 3 Galaxy Rasbora fry.
This time i left the male in the cave untill the fry were fully developed and left there cave on there own. Before the male would be to protective and not let them leave so he would have to be removed.
Things were going nicely. Over a couple of days they left the cave seeking food.

In the mean time in another tank i found a male Ancistrus Claro LDA08 in a large cave with some eggs just starting to hatch.
He shared this cave with a sumo loach. I'm surprised the sumo didn't eat the eggs but i'm sure he would have devoured the young.
I placed this cave with the Claro and hatching eggs in to the tank with the Monte Dourado.
Since the Monte Dourado male was such a roll model parent he decided to evict the male Claro and look after his young.
The Claro was placed back in to his original tank.

It wasn't long before things started to go pear shaped again.
The Monte Dourado fry were dieing again. This time they would start to swim high up in the tank but not up to the surface.
They would get a white band in the mid section before going white 3/4 there length from the head back. Shortly after this they would die.
This would happen over a 2-3 hour period.
The Galaxy Rasbora are still fine and the Claro are fine still with eggsacs.
The batch of Monte Dourado was a normal amount of about 20 with only 3 left today. I suspect by tomorrow they will be all gone.

So has anyone any idea what is causing them to die? Looking at them there is no visible sign of infection.
The only difference between these and previous young is i increased the GH from 1-1.5 to 2.2dH

In the picture there is one that looks perfectly fine and one about to die.

Very interesting post, sorry to hear that things are not going too well though.

I don't know if it is a factor with L411, but it might be worth checking, I have read in a couple of different places, most recently Feb PFK that some L numbers are from softer and warmer water than I thought and that the fry are particularly delicate as in the wild the water is soft soft the bacteria count is very low, therefore for catptive breeding you need to drop the pH quite low for the egg and initial fry stages. Then slowly return to 6.5ish.

Might be worth investigating futher. Good luck with finding some solution anyway. The L411 has not beed bred by many and I am pretty sure you are the first in this country so it would be a shame not to get the last step of the way.


Daragh

That's interesting Daragh about the low PH. The thing is i have had a few spawns with a PH of 6.5 and no real problems.
The only problem in the past was the first batch with 80% losses. The other 2 accounts i know of with people breeding these had the exact same amount of fry with the exact amount of losses.
With the second batch i had a 95% survival rate.
I think the other 2 accounts i know of were either one offs or they never reported more successes.

Not knowing exactly were they come from dosent help when trying to match the water. Monte Dourado is were they go after been caught and before been shipped.
The closest info i have is lower Rio Jari and a PH of 5.5 -7.5. Temp 25-29c (77-84f).

I think the problem is the increase of the hardness. I did this to try get better development early on but i think it back fired on me.
As you know Hypancistrus grow sooo slowly. The oldest i have are 4 months old and still quite small.

I think why they swim around the upper section of the tank is there nervous system is going haywire from the GH.
It will be interesting to see what people think.

hi darren
there is so little good information or reliable breeding and raising accounts for a lot of these L no. species, that
u will probably have to be the pioneer and lead the way.
the only suggestion i could add is to be aware of the effects of water depth, when doing water changes. when i attempt to raise a new (to me)or rare species, i add and remove water at the same time avoiding change in depth and pressure. also i would try to avoid draughts, esp. this time of year. it can be frustrating losing fry in this way, but its probably only necessary to make a small adjustment to sort it out.
well done on your acheivement so far, and good luck.

I never taught of the water pressure. Looks like i will have to do a Magiver with a tub that will sit on one end of the tank with some tubing and something to stick in the tubing to act as a float. That would top up the tank while i syphon the water out.
They dont necessarily pop there clogs when water is been changed. It could happen any time 24/7.
They start to almost vibrate on the base of the tank like some one just gave them some narcotics and then start to swim around the tank. Plecos are not know for their showing off swimming mid water.
Not to long after that they are gone.
Thanks for the tip Derek.

What do yo mean by draughts?

She is nearly due to breed again so i will rest him and if they breed again i will lower the GH and take water pressure in to account.

Darren.

Thanks for the comments John.
I taught about the problem i had before with the fish going pale and switching on/off like a switch. But it dosent seem to be the same.
Maye they are producing white cells to repair internal damage of some sort and this is why they go pale. But i am just guessing an cant be sure. I would have to break out the microscope to check this.

Each time the tank is set up i use 100% re-mineral RO water. So water quality is not really an issue.
There should be plenty of oxygen from the sponge filters and airstone. With little wast in the tank there would be verry little filter bacteria to rob the oxygen from the water.
I dont use a powerhead or pump when they are this young. After about 4 weeks from hatching they are moved and then they are introduced to a stronger flow in the tank.
The male produces a small bit of waste even though he is not fed when he is looking after eggs.
The tank gets a water change every day to remove any waste. The water is the same temp., PH etc.

Just a quick update.
The male has been rested and this morning the pair were in the cave. They are still there now 15 hours later. There must have been a lot of four play.
I have set up a tank again and the male, eggs and cave will be moved here tomorrow.
Hopefully this time things will go better.

Tank set up; Bare tank, 3 sponge filters, plenty of aeration, heater, small piece of wood and very dim lighting.
Water stats; pH 6.5, GH <1dh, TDS 55ppm and temp. 28c (82f).

The Ancistrus Claro mentioned above are doing fine and by chance i found a male king tiger pleco Hypancistrus sp. L66 with some young starting to hatch.
The L66 have been moved to there own tank.

Better luck this time.

Great news on the Claro and L066.

A proper pleco farm you have running

L046 next

Daragh

Darren,any update on this thread?

Hi Mate
Funnily enough I was talking To Alan (ZOOM) yesterday about pressure. and said that with Discus (Egg layers). and other such as Killies. (Soft WaterFish Especialy)
To get a good Hatch rate I always have a low tds Kh Gh Ph as you have. BUT after about a week I lower the Water level as This eases the pressure on internal organs and then slowly increase the GH/Kh as this provides Calcium levels that help the skeletal structure/ bones to harden and develope If as you found out the fry would swim to the surface it cpould be to much of a srtuggle. so if they only have a short distance from bottom of tank to surface this certainly eases the stres
Just my observations.

Hi Russell, i use a very similar method when hatching annual killifish. Very soft, very acidic water seems to help with hatching the eggs. From here they can be transferred to shallow slightly acidic water.

Anyway, i was hopeing to return to this tread with all my problems solved. Unfortunately that is not the case.
Even with a lower pH and ridiculously low TDS the last batch i had died very quickly.
I have a batch at the moment in a breeding trap in the main tank that are doing ok. I lost about 1/3 as soon as they hatched so it's not perfect.

I have been on to a guy in the UK who is breeding these with no problems. His water stats; nitrate - 30 ish
phi - 7.2 TDS - 350ppm.
He dosent test KH/GH so i dont know what his hardness is. So maybe they are not fussy about there water or mine is to soft.
I've been thinking about what John had mentioned earlier about the problem i had in this tank with the fish going pale. Maybe this has had a long term effect on the parents or at least one of them. This is then carried on to the fry.
I dont think it is the same problem but at this stage it's worth investigating.

Here is what i plan to do. After the fish show is over and i have a bit more time i will contact a couple of people who have adult L411 and see if i can borrow a male or female. Try breed this with one of mine and see how the fry do.
Question on genetics; when a male and female have fry is it a 50/50 split what they pass on to the fry? Or is it more in favour of the male or the female?
The reason i ask is so i know weather to borrow a male or a female.

I don't know in fish, but in humans except the 2 sex chromosomes all the other 22 pairs of chromosomes(one from the mother and one from the father) cary the same genes. What else I do remember is that mitocondrial diseases are transmited only from the mother.

From the other poin of view I don't think it has to do with genetics as long as you managed to get 2 or 3 perfect batches of fry b4.

This is an age old question about the Genes. Unlike Humans we can't test for the fertility/ chromosones and other factors unless we have a proven pair. the only way to determine this is the hatch. Sometimes depending on the age the male could still be fertile but firing (blanks) so to speak. or the feemale could be imature and not pruducing the fertility. Once you get at least a few surviving young from the spawn you are working Blind.
I agree with the findings of your Friend, that not all prameters are the Rule only a guide. for instance Alan had my Tefes spawn at A TDS of 60 Ph of high 5's. Now in my set up they don,t like the Ph below 6.5 and the TDS has to be around 120. also we both agreed that Nitrate at "0" is not good, there should always be some nitrate present.(minimal) but present. I also think that a trap is a good idea as this will stop any pressure on the eggs, When you think of it Killi's spawn in puddles. also there eggs can lay dormant until the rain comes. & it only takes a few spots of water to trigger the hatching process. It may be that you have a pair of say F's that have that natural inbread instinct as to spawning. and not from a Domesticated Pair.
Perhaps borrowing a proven Female would help. and if no luck try borrowing a Male. a long process but the only sure way. Sorry I can't offer anymore help.
Don't we just love our hobby.

@ Xeon.
That's a strange one, mitochondrial diseases. My mother has a lot to answer for.
That's a good point regarding them been able to breed before and having nearly 100% survival rate.
This has made me rethink my plan.
If i was to borrow a male/female i would have to set up a tank for them so i wouldn't mix them up with my own.
So instead i will just use the pair i have in a tank on there own and just leave the fry in with them for the first month or so.
I cant do this in the tank the adults are in at the moment because there are some predators in there that would eat the fry.

@ Russell.
I dont think it's an age thing. I got them about a year ago. It wasn't long after i got them when the female started to get rounded and plump and the males odontodes started to grow long.
They were a good size when i got them so i would say they were wild caught. But that's not to say they arent related.

Can you elaborate on "0" Nitrate not been good? I think it's best to have 0 Nitrate for fry or am i missing something?
Nitrate can stunt growth and it's when the fish are young you want good growth so they can reach there full potential as mature fish.
I beleave you can have 3 types of set up's for fry.
1 were you have a sterile glass box that gets 1-2 90% water changes a day. You wouldn't even need a filter on these tanks. The Ammonia shouldn't exceed 0.5ppm. 0.02-0.5ppm of Ammonia will promote growth. I wouldn't recommend this method at all. I dont think the fish would have any sort of immune system and would have nothing but problems in an average aquarium and any level of Ammonia is toxic to fish.
2 a tank with a small amount of substrate from an existing tank, an established filter, some plants for vegetable filtration (ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate & Phosphate) and small daily water changes. This is my prefered method.
3 raising them in the main tank. This is fine as long as the water quality is good and they find enough food.

I know i side tracked a bit but i'm curious about the low levels of Nitrate you refer to.

With reference to low level Nitate, I mean low level. Just mesurable. if you have a low TDS and run R.O and also a Low Ph there is a danger of it becoming TO sterile, (I.M,O). O.K, the fry are just developing and have virtualy no imune system, They have to develpe one & the way we all develope an imune system is by our system producing anti bodies. In a strange way without infections we couldn,t survive. (i.e a sterile system ). The strongest survive. Please don't read this as a definative answer just the way I look at things. I have always advocated Culling heavily. as to day there are to many weak strains on the Market. I see more and more so called good looking stock that fade away after a few months,But anyway that is another issue. I didn,t mean to imply that your Male was to old, only that the Milt he produces may not be fertile enough. again only a thought.
Best of luck

I get you now and i agree. That's why i would use an established filter and a small amount of plant just to get some bacteria and some micro organisms in the tank. As you say the fish need something to help build up there immune system.

Have you spoken to Alan (Zoom) he has a great set up and his breeders are great.

I know Alan but i have not been down to visit him or his fish.