organic, pros and cons

i have been a fan of organic aqua for the last couple of years and have found it to be invaluable when dealing with new fishkeepers and emergencys. i have set up tanks for numerous people using organic with extraordinary success.
fill tank with cold tap water, bring up to req. temp with boiling water from kettle, add organic (3 parts) and finally add fish. (any fish, even large adults) and walk away.
even the most basic novice will then have a month to learn how to treat and feed their fish without any fish loss or suffering.
at the end of the month if the user has got the knack i reccomend allowing the tank to revert to normal filtering. a large partial water change and discontinue organic and the change is seamless.
other times i have used organic is when faced with a complete breakdown of the normal cycling. a large water change and add organic and an airstone and problem fixed with minimal fish losses or suffering.
and finally when treating a badly injured fish the addition of organic health treatment can lead to a great recovery.
have to go now but i will write more on this subject later and am interested in other peoples (esp. ian ) views on this.

I've been using OA exclusively for the last few years and with great results until as mentioned in my last post I bought the bulk OA product.have to say my big problem with this product is the lack of customer care and let's face it this is an on going repeat monthly purchase. If you have two tanks,small tanks,that's around €35pm

Big fan of this product myself, downside was the cost and the inability to test yuor water as your results were so inaccurate.
You had to basically put all you faith in the product but to be fair i never had any problems with it.

This could be a good discussion thread.

I'm off for some coffee and have some work to do.....but I'll be back later to spew a few my dry thoughts on the subject.

ian

Big fan myself.Healthy fish and monthly water changes.I just feel let down by my last purchase.Thought I would save myself a few yo yos by buying the pond size of OA.

we always use this product when setting up display tanks for shows etc. its a great product.
john

There’s pretty good testimonials supporting OA…..maybe I’ll play devils advocate to tease out the ‘against’ vote.

I am probably on record somewhere as being perceived as someone who is ‘anti-OA’.
If that is the case, then that is a misconception…….but I am not totally happy with some aspects of OA.

I’m not keen on anything claimed as magical or as ‘contains no chemicals’ etc etc.

If the marketers just simply sold it as a novel or whatever water treatment then that would be fine.

Major leaps forward in fish-keeping are vital:
OA could potentially be a major leap forward, but its ‘superlative’ marketing is more likely to relegate it to a cul-de-sac.
There is a potential for aquarists to be instantly sceptical and refuse to go near it (ie a bit like some of the products shown in 30 minute long adverts on TV….you know the type).

That would be a great pity for any potential leap forward.

There is more ammunition (weak or strong) for the sceptics to use against OA than there is to support it.

It would be nice if the product were more transparent in what is in it and how it works……that may bring home the sceptics.

BUT….as I always say: should I refuse to eat my dinner simply because I don’t understand the process of digestion?
The simple answer is…..eat the dinner, and forget the science.
Science should NOT dictate our opinion of anything really.

If we look at other products, then one that stands out as probably the greatest leap forward in fish keeping was the invention of the Undergravel Filter (yes….seriously, that is my belief).
At the time it was introduced, however, there was uncertainty about how it worked…..(I also believe ??? that it bizarrely marketed as ‘biological filtration’ yet at the time that would have been a bit silly…..it was only later that the biological filtration aspect became apparent) but it worked, and it sold.

I have a pack of OA hanging around….but have never given it a try.
Maybe I should.

Why have I not used it?
Am I against instant water systems?

The answer to the last question is I’m not against instant water.
I personally use filter squeezes, water sharing, ‘bacteria in a bottle’, I’ve used ‘EasyNeo’ (another magical potion….said to contain No-Chemicals), and I also have an array of various molecular sieves for removing whatever I need from a ‘new tank’.
ie I’m only partially a purist.

And they go hand-in-hand with my believe in you can’t beat a fully and properly aged and mature tank.

So….if I like my tanks to be instant, then why not use OA?
The cost and the marketing indication of a repeat-prescription are off-putting.
And, like any product, there is choice of which brand one uses. Eg I don’t use PolyFilter……it’s too expensive and I have cheaper at hand.

As for the potential of it actually working or not?
For the sceptics against OA……the ammunition against it is actually quite weak.

There is no reason why OA cannot do what it claims.
The science behind the claims are possibly sound enough….....but the details are, unfortunately, lacking within OA marketing.

There is nothing wrong with anything that amounts to being herbal remedy (which part of the OA system is). I certainly support herbal medicine and attempts at herbal treatments, and novel ways of fish-keeping (even if they go against the 'accepted methods')

That is quite a long post for someone who doesn’t use it.

If my words are taken in the right context, then it should be clear that I am not against OA….but I would fear that, as a product, it could die a death because of it’s marketing methods.

ian

very good and fair post ian and in principle i would agree with every sentence within. like yourself i am sceptical towards the never ending new "miracle" products and when i try them am almost always disappointed. and with organic and its outlandish claims i was initially reluctant to even try it but after listening to testimonials from fishkeepers and people in the trade whose opinions i value, i eventually gave it a go and was astonished with the result. it instantly turns tap water into the perfect habitat for even the most delicate and travel weary fish. the nearest thing to turning wine into water that i have experienced in 30 years of fishkeeping.
it has of course got limitations like everything in life and i will write of them in due course but as a get out of jail free card for beginners it is peerless and the initial cost is quickly recouped as there are rarely any fish losses and no need for any crappy expensive medications.
anyway i would urge you to give it a try as i would love to read the verdict of someone with a logical and scientific leaning as this stuff defies logic and science as i know it.

Interesting Thread,
Never tried the stuff myself, but reading below is making me curious just wondering when would it become practical for me to use it. I prefer the old school water changes, as although OA enhances the nitrogen cycle, neutralizes heavy metals/gases(I think?). I don't like the idea of a waste build up on the floor of the tank and planaria blooms and pathogens, waste food becoming breeding grounds for snails to proliferate etc,?? Can it prevent all that too especially feeding foods such as beef heart that can be very messy.

Probably ideal for small community tanks IMO.
But no experience of it and don't think I ever will.
But can see the positive use of the product form Derek's post.

John,

That sounds like a nice experiment you have planned, you should run a day by day update on that , I'm very interested to learn from your results.

Alan.

@JohnH.....that is the proper way to test it out. So I'll be waiting to see the results. (although for a full scientific experiment, you'd need to set-up 300 tanks minimum !! )

On occasions, I step off the track of being a fish-keeper and into my old science shoes (which is really medicinal toxicological chemistry).....but here I'll also put on my old hat of once lecturing in orchid science and look at potential HERBAL remediation that MIGHT be the key in OA.

This is all speculation, based upon south african plants (as I believe that is the source of OA) and the properties that I know about.

So....what African Herbals might be in it (I love cracking open the ingredients in our aquatic products)...


Carpobrotus…....sour figs. These are sometimes called mesembryanthemams (contain, amongst other things, malic acid….the sourness)
See.........en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpobrotus

Aloe ( especially Aloe ferox)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloe_ferox
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloe_vera

Sutherlandia (has had name changes)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lessertia_frutescens

Poaceae grass family…..possibly Phragmites:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phragmites

Used in phytoremediation .... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoremediation


Maybe add something like Eucalyptus......and then use that as a mix for growing some bacteria that is not killed by the antibacterial properties of the various plants, and use it.

The medicinal properties of plants such as Carpobrotus are actually quite important. It contains polyphenols that are showing great promise in colon cancer (one of my specific topics of interest) as well as effects on the circulation system (and are related to some of the well know medical herbals in red wine recently reported as 'why red wine could be good').


Ian

JohnH wrote:

- next time I visit an LFS which sells it I will buy enough for a 2ft tank, then set it up - completely 'as per' the instructions - but in tandem I will also set up another 2ft tank 'in the old-fashioned way' and perhaps a third using conventional methods of tank cycling.
I will put the same fish varieties in each tank and then can compare notes over a defined period. I think the results will, at least, be interesting but could equally throw up some intriguing results as well.


John

hi john
good post and i wait with bated breath but..
i can predict with certainty what the result will be, the organic tank will be perfect for immediate introduction of fish, the old fashioned method of weeks of cycling will break your heart and will eventually be fit to house fish and the third using water and filters from established tanks will be grand too but will still require care when feeding until fully kicked in.
having said the above i have no doubt that an experienced keeper such as yourself ian or myself, will succeed with any of the above methods by observing basic rules learned through hands on experience over many years.
i very strongly believe that the major benefit of using organic is to get newcomers up and running and buy some time for them to learn how to feed properly and avoid the infernal medicating of imagined diseases. 95 per cent of the problems (illness? diseases?) that new keepers see are just the fish reacting to incorrect (not properly cycled) water.
@ louis. i agree that the marketing and individual customercare backup is weak at times. steve needs to set up a dedicated website to deal with this and maybe delegate somewhat to cater for times when he is not contactable.
@ ian. organic is probably as you say a mix of herbs/plants etc. but it is unlike anything else on the market in the way it works and it does work. whoever invented and developed this must be a genius and it could probably be developed further with massive commercial impact for aquacultare in general.

A very interesting topic. I suppose as a relatively new person to fishkeeping I find it easy to see these products and believe the hype. They do make life a lot easier for a novice fishkeeper. There is nothing worse than being new to the hobby, getting a brand new tank, and either throwing a load of beautiful colourful fish in and seeing them all dying, or deciding to do some research and finding you have to 'cycle' the tank for a month before you can do anything!

I suppose for the seasoned fish keeper the scepticism is understandable. They have been cycling the tank for years the old fashioned way. They know its not exciting but they know it works and also, more importantly, how it works (well kinda anyway! ). They have probably seen products such as these come and go over the years with all the claims under the sun.

On the other hand simply dismissing them as snake oil is also a bit silly. The hobby will never move along if everything new is dismissed. I like that you guys are not simply dismissing it or holding it up as the next big thing, but discussing the pros and cons. Having Ian and his scientific background is also great as it allows us to understand what may be involved in the product, rather than taking the manufacturers word for it.

very well put, pompey bill. it is fair and articulate posts like this that restore my faith in the value of forums.
when starting this thread i was hoping ian would be attracted to contribute with his specialist knowledge.

of the people (including some of the best fishkeepers around) that actually use or have used it, i have not met one who was'nt convinced of its value. as with anything there are pros and cons and it is not of as much value (but still useful) to the old hands but its value to newcomers is incalcuble and when used per instructions it is bulletproof.
so come on johnh get that experiment started and move off that flat earth lol.

JohnH wrote:

I just cannot blindly believe in a product I'm told to, without knowing more about it

absolutely agree john, we have to try any product before we can properly judge its worth.

As 'Guinea Pigs' I have been promised some young Apistos - so it had better work, these particular ones aren't that easily come by!

i can safely guarantee that the organic tank will have no problems for even the most delicate flower, can't vouch for tanks 2 and 3 though

Old myths or semi-facts don't help a new product getting recognition; it isn't just a matter of people wanting to stick to tested and trusted methods.

As said, I haven't given OA a test drive, so I don't have any log of results.....but I do have loads of speculation as food for thought.

One semi-truth that often comes into fish-keeping is the 'how to get rid of nitrate'.
Now for normal uses, the old sayings of "you can only get rid of nitrate by....." water changes, plants, and conversion to nitrogen gas in anaerobic conditions etc are only partially true.
Similarly, there is a general teaching that ammonia goes to nitrites goes to nitrates in a one way system....but that is not true: it can work in reverse.
Normally, I try to not go into that bit of water chemistry as it is confusing and is, to say the least, complex.

One way that the ammonia to nitrite to nitrate system that works in reverse produces ammonia....maybe not what we want, but if that ammonia is then instantly assimilated into bacteria that use it for building up its cellular nitrogen (eg making amino acids) then that would solve our problem of removing nitrate and ammonia.

Sounds magical??? well, it's fact.

And it goes to show that nature works in more than one way (where would we be if we didn't have alternate metabolic cycles)?

Now, I'm thinking aloud.....and I'm thinking of a bacteria called Bacillus subtilis.

This was classed as strict aerobic (required oxygen) species living in soil or on grasses (see my speculation of what is in OA), but it also does some super chemistry without oxygen.

Not only that, but it is known to activate the immune system (ie a medication).

Ummmm....???
Now I can give positive support to a specific product that I've nor looked at, but what I am saying is that there are parts of how nature works that are not commonly communicated within fish-keeping literature....and hence even the impossible may actually be not only possible but commonplace if the system is spiked to exploit such 'alternatives'.

Now...if my comments don't answer how OA works, then maybe they could be followed up by a fish-keeper who would like to look further into the alternative possibilities.

On an added note, this thread has had some of the best comments on the subject of Organic Aqua that I've seen.

Generally, the posts on other threads (on this or other forums) have been either total denial or total following, with few paragraphs of explanation.

I would maybe have expected to see a few more people contribute.

@Derek, I've noted on the instructions that it says a gas is released that could condense back into the water if the lid is too tight fitting......do you happen to know what that gas is? (it can't be nitrogen as it would make little difference if it redissolved...and it wouldn't condense anyway).

ian

igmillichip wrote:

@Derek, I've noted on the instructions that it says a gas is released that could condense back into the water if the lid is too tight fitting......do you happen to know what that gas is? (it can't be nitrogen as it would make little difference if it redissolved...and it wouldn't condense anyway).

ian

assumed it was nitrate ian but dont really know, could it be a form of methane? though it has no obvious smell.
my amateur deduction as to how organic works is ammonia direct to a safe form of nitrate which is then released. the available information says it is best to use an airstone and leave lid raised at least for part of the time. the health treatment part of organic can be used independently and i often use this to great effect particularly with what looks like lost causes.
one aspect of organic that surprised me is it( ime) prevents outbreaks of disease/parasites in newly imported stock, but when fish are then moved to normal water there can be a parasite outbreak. this is not too much of a problem if we are aware of the possibility and the now strong fish will shrug it off with the help of the normal cures. again my guess is that organic suppresses the parasites to a very low level but dos'nt eliminate them. (by building up the fishs slime coat and immune system they are not unduly bothered by pests which then cannot get the usual foothold that leads to a major infestation.
the above are my opinions based on my own findings through actual usage of the product.

Cheers Derek.

I wouldn't have put the gas as being a nitrate though. Methane? a sulphurous gas? maybe? they'd be smellable. Carbon dixoide? (could be easily tested with limewater), or maybe it is laughing gas (one of the products of the nitrogen cycle)?
That is something that I must have a look at.....but as I no longer have a full lab at my disposal, then I would only be able to detect some of the more obvious ones.

The health treatment.....that is sounding more and more like the hey bacteria (B. subtilis) doing one of its other actions: boosting the immune system.
Although, if OA contains some of the African Herbs that it might well contain, then they are also well known anti-microbial agents.

Yep. The manufacterers need to come out of secrecy me thinks and plonk the product on the doorsteps of the sceptics

ian

great reading on this topic i used organic myself the first time i set up a tank it was a 450ltr and i didnt have a clue so i bought AO and away i went i filled the tank on a thursday from the tap and used the AQUA and put my fish in on the next day and no probs and it was sugested for the second month to use the follow on kit which i did i never lost a fish it was great .BUT when i stopped useing it i was back to the reality of learning the basics about my tank and fish because before that AO done all the work for me which was great but when i got the water checked after i start losing some fish it was all over the the place and it was like starting over .i would agree its great for getting a tank up and running but from my own experience its important that you have the right idea what your doing when your going back to your own resources unless your going to use it constently. ciaran

Very interesting points.I put myself into the old style corner.i am not out to safe myself time and work because thats part of the hobby for me.The "old style" works for me and why should i spent than unnessesary money.
Regards,Tim

have to say i am really enjoying this topic.
i have seen and tried most things there are to see in this hobby and have spoken to and learned from the best, but have never come accross anything that even approaches the sheer effectiveness and simplicity of this product.
i have no doubt that if it was marketed properly it would change fishkeeping (worldwide) as we know it. for the fishkeeping trade it is similar to the mythical everlasting electric bulb and they would be canny to try to suppress its emergence. i would compare it to homeopathic medicine or accupuncture.
any sceptics need only try it and they will be convinced of its extraordinary ability to make fishkeeping easy.

ciaranm wrote:

BUT when i stopped useing it i was back to the reality of learning the basics about my tank and fish because before that AO done all the work for me which was great but when i got the water checked after i start losing some fish it was all over the the place and it was like starting over .i would agree its great for getting a tank up and running but from my own experience its important that you have the right idea what your doing when your going back to your own resources unless your going to use it constently. ciaran

I had intended to post something about this. If you stop using the product what exactly happens? Does this product cycle the tank as we know it or does it just create a 'safe' environment for fish to live - so when it is no longer used does the environment become harmful to fish or has it cycled the aquarium?

I know there are certain products that have bacteria that create a safe environment for fish, but they are not the correct bacteria and have to be added to the aquarium constantly to keep it gsafe (Nutrafin Cycle I think may be one - don't know the science but from reading this is my understanding of it - open to correction!) and don't 'cycle' the aquarium so to speak.

Hope this makes sense - I know what I mean but am having trouble putting it into words! Lol

I am not sure if Ciaran meant that this happened or it was simply harder to get back into the practice of monitoring the tank and keeping up more regular maintenance, but it touched on the subject of what happens when you stop using it.

Edit - this is based on my limited knowledge of the product and a quick look at their website and the products - there is a startup kit and maintenance kit. I assumed you have to use the maintenance kit regularly, but if you can use the startup kit on its own I apologise.

pompeybill, as i understand it, the normal organic startup runs for a month with weekly top ups of the supplied liquid. at the end of the month it is necessary to get the maintenance kit and dose again and wash out the filters if any in tapwater to prevent normal cycling, and so on if you wish to continue.
but if you wish to revert to normal cycling (and i have done this several times with 100 per cent success) then as some cycling will have been triggered it is only necessary to discontinue organic dosing, do a partial water change and tank will quickly cycle normally. at this stage some care is required re reduced feeding etc. until cycling is fully kicked in. ime it is seamless. at this stage the novice has gained valuable experience re feeding, equipment etc. and fishkeeping can be enjoyed without the trauma.

naw, you will be pleasently surprised with great sucess and then i will send you a large slice of humble pie lol.
with the health treatment i reckon with further research and developement that it would transform fishkeeping. one of the more forward thinking pet store managers uses the above to settle newly arrived fish with great success.
at present i am treating a badly bruised tropheus in this way and i am confident of a full recovery.

derek wrote:

pompeybill, as i understand it, the normal organic startup runs for a month with weekly top ups of the supplied liquid. at the end of the month it is necessary to get the maintenance kit and dose again and wash out the filters if any in tapwater to prevent normal cycling, and so on if you wish to continue.
but if you wish to revert to normal cycling (and i have done this several times with 100 per cent success) then as some cycling will have been triggered it is only necessary to discontinue organic dosing, do a partial water change and tank will quickly cycle normally. at this stage some care is required re reduced feeding etc. until cycling is fully kicked in. ime it is seamless. at this stage the novice has gained valuable experience re feeding, equipment etc. and fishkeeping can be enjoyed without the trauma.

Thanks for the reply Derek. I assume the fish will suffer slightly though if the tank is cycling - there would be higher levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate while it is cycling, but for a shorter time than cycling normally?

@JohnH - Keep us updated John, am intrigued now as to what happens.

[quote="PompeyBill" post=101327Thanks for the reply Derek. I assume the fish will suffer slightly though if the tank is cycling - there would be higher levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate while it is cycling, but for a shorter time than cycling normally?

@JohnH - Keep us updated John, am intrigued now as to what happens.[/quote]

no bill, it should be seamless with virtually no rise in toxicity. just careful feeding as cycling bacteria and conditions are already present and will multiply very rapidly to effect full cycling. have done and seen it many times.

am treating a tropheus that was battered to a pulp (by a hyperdominant ball of testerone namely an ageing tropheus) with organic health treatment and checked him today and there is some improvement as he is off the bottom and injuries are covered with a sort of fuzzieness which works afaik like a scab and speeds recovery, he is also starting to eat small amounts so i am very hopeful of further speedy recovery. i will take some pics and post them if interest is sufficient.

ps
tropheus aggression in aquaria is never malicious and is survival of the fittest. as young males reach full maturity they will be attacked by the dominant, (the rest of the troop will join in) as he is trying to eliminate a future takeover before the tyro becomes too strong.