organic, pros and cons

have to keep this topic active to ensure my commision. joke! joke.

after a few days treatment with the health treatment, the almost dead tropheus wounds have healed well and he is eating again (key sign) and i will now take him out of solitary and let him recuperate in the company of small malawis. he will never be able to return to the main doubosi group but i will attempt to establish a new group with other younger specimens.

derek wrote:

have to keep this topic active to ensure my commision. joke! joke.

after a few days treatment with the health treatment, the almost dead tropheus wounds have healed well and he is eating again (key sign) and i will now take him out of solitary and let him recuperate in the company of small malawis. he will never be able to return to the main doubosi group but i will attempt to establish a new group with other younger specimens.

Do keep it going. We're also awaiting JohnH to file his report on his experiments.
Hope he re-establishes. It also sounds to me like one of the reasons I ended up with so many Tanganyikan tanks at one stage.

ian

just wondering if we could get somebody from organic to do a talk at one of our meeting ,it might be interesting
john

@John G.....good idea.

@JohnH.....good old fashioned observation IS science.

Very interesting read.

As someone who is just about to cycle my first tank, it is very tempting for me to just get some magic potion from my LFS, pop it in the tank and call my self a fish keeper. but it's not for me i think, i'd prefer to work from the ground up and learn the hobby and the full process before I try things like this.

For experienced fishkeepers who want to use it is perfectly understandable, they know what happens during cycling, they have seen the pit falls and dangers they have lost fish and know the sign's when things are going wrong.For people new to fishkeeping(like myself) why not try it the old way until you get more experience then when you have the knowlage base try the magic potions.Not sure if i read it here on some where else but someone said that "you are not a fish keeper , more like a water keeper".Not much point in starting a hobby only to take the easy way out and skip the hard work.

Stuart.

PS: I just read it back and it sounds a bit high winded my appolgies,it's late and i'm ranting .

Derek,did you take photos as mentioned?

john wrote:

just wondering if we could get somebody from organic to do a talk at one of our meeting ,it might be interesting
john

johng, we did have a talk by steve a few years ago and it was well attended and very interesting but i am sure he would make a return visit if requested. apart from organic, steve is very experienced in all aspects of fishkeeping and the trade and is a good confident speaker. i will ask him when next i talk to him and also send u a contact no. to make it official.

I have used this in a cold water tank and an edge.
Used it in cold water as after a tank leak had lost my filter bacteria so used it and never looked back until I sold the tank. It had white clouds and other coldies and everything was blooming including plants.
On the edge I did not have a filter as i bought it second hand and could not get a filter to fit. It worked liker a dream. Had Endlers and shrimp and they both bred like rabbits (or endlers). Even got to give some and sell some !!
Then i got a filter second hand and had lots of algae problems and lost loads of shrip before things settled

The price was not bad for my small set ups at about 9-12 euro per month, only one water change making life easier but most important the fish never seemed stressed or unhealthy. Minimal losses most of which I attribute to old age not illness. Less time poking around cleaning the tank also reduces stress on the fish and m as i can spend more time enjoying them rather than messing with their environment

Just my two bits and Steve was also available to answer questions if I posted on here or by pm so big TU to him and would love to actually meet him in the real world

Acara wrote:

Derek,did you take photos as mentioned?

yeah dave, took a few though in darkened tank and not very good. i will continue taking progress shots and will probably post series later.

derek wrote:

after a few days treatment with the health treatment, the almost dead tropheus wounds have healed well and he is eating again (key sign) and i will now take him out of solitary and let him recuperate in the company of small malawis. he will never be able to return to the main doubosi group but i will attempt to establish a new group with other younger specimens.

update. the above mentioned fish is now fully recovered and housed with adult malawis while i consider his future companions. so not for the first time organic health treatment has given me an edge when trying the near impossible. on a previous occasion i nursed a goldfish (which had been hideously injured by a heron) back to full health. now its possible that the two fish mentioned would have survived and recovered without the use of the health treatment but i would seriously doubt it.
ps
all my comments on this thread are based on my own actual experiences and are posted as a matter of interest.
whether readers use or dont use this product is of no real concern to me, but i will continue to promote it as a fantastic start up aid for first time fishkeepers.

Glad to hear that he is back up to scratch Derek. Nice one .

Jay

i'm not swallowing this witch craft mumbo jumbo

dar wrote:

i'm not swallowing this witch craft mumbo jumbo

You're not going to leave us hanging here Dar....let the cat out of the bag and add another dimension to the thread.

ian

ok ok i'l add a dimension >>> i only said that too rile derek up a little lol
ah no, i bet it is very good stuff and i am all for aquatic 'miracle' break throughs, but i'm also for sticking to wat works

dar wrote:

but i'm also for sticking to wat works

thats what everybody does dar, we all like to use things that work and discard what dos'nt work. the whole point of this thread is to explore the potential of this product as a fishkeeping aid and to give views on our findings.

as an aid to established fishkeepers it might have limitations but for the beginner it is invaluable imo.
after 30 years i understand quite well how to cycle a fish tank as i'm sure you do, but to explain cycling to a novice with all its mysteries (check some of ians good postings on this subject) or to promote the use of organic aqua at least for the first month, well i know which option i prefer.
anyway keep winding, i love it.

I don't blame Dar for calling this stuff 'witchcraft mumbo jumbo' (to be honest).....the marketing of OA is a bit shite, and is one of the reasons why I would initially treat the product with suspicion.

I am a very cynical sceptic of many things....but am willing to be open-minded enough to look into the potential of OA.

It is good to see some comments from all sides on this product.

But on 'things that work' or on 'useless things'......my goodness there isn't half some shite on the shelves that people buy and believe.

How many books should be thrown in the bin because they simply tell us crap?
If I have to pick up yet one more book on marine keeping that claims crap then I'll scream out "please, oh great wizard of the earth, stars and sea, give us one book on marine keeping that does not claim the unlikely" to which I will even clutch a rose coloured crystal pyramid in one hand and the Book of Solomon in the other (all witchcraft stuff).

And to be quite honest, many test kits come into the realms of questionable black-box magic......but should be not use them?
Does a carbonate hardness test kit test for what it says on the tin? No.
Does a nitrate test kit test for just nitrates? No.
A pH test kit only tests for certain acidity or bascity....it only measures pH (not good enough really).

Where do we stop? and where do we start?
(just some philosophical thoughts.....without me being too cynical )

ian

derek wrote:

the use of organic aqua at least for the first month, well i know which option i prefer.

there seems to be a few contradictory statements between this thread and the other one.

If I use OA on a tank to get it up and running and then revert to nirmal schedule of water changes etc, will the tank cycle anyway? Can I use it for a month (or a week) and revert to the old fashioned way without fish losses?

Also - a what point do my tests become valid again?

If anyone has experience of the above, please do let me know (I'm in a hurry to setup my next fry growing-on tank!!!)

igmillichip wrote:

I don't blame Dar for calling this stuff 'witchcraft mumbo jumbo' (to be honest).....the marketing of OA is a bit shite, and is one of the reasons why I would initially treat the product with suspicion.

I am a very cynical sceptic of many things....but am willing to be open-minded enough to look into the potential of OA.

It is good to see some comments from all sides on this product.

But on 'things that work' or on 'useless things'......my goodness there isn't half some shite on the shelves that people buy and believe.

How many books should be thrown in the bin because they simply tell us crap?
If I have to pick up yet one more book on marine keeping that claims crap then I'll scream out "please, oh great wizard of the earth, stars and sea, give us one book on marine keeping that does not claim the unlikely" to which I will even clutch a rose coloured crystal pyramid in one hand and the Book of Solomon in the other (all witchcraft stuff).

And to be quite honest, many test kits come into the realms of questionable black-box magic......but should be not use them?
Does a carbonate hardness test kit test for what it says on the tin? No.
Does a nitrate test kit test for just nitrates? No.
A pH test kit only tests for certain acidity or bascity....it only measures pH (not good enough really).

Where do we stop? and where do we start?
(just some philosophical thoughts.....without me being too cynical )

ian

Ian, without disrespect, things have moved on since your first days of fishkeeping.
If you want to remain in the the dark ages, so be it. This product(OA) has so far has got 100% backing from people that have used it on this forum from all levels of experience. Personally the only 'magic formula' I've used is Tetra Safestart which worked a treat. Tetra are 'in the game' 60 years now with obviously a talented bunch of scientists. After investing lots of ££ in the product why should they let out their secret(bacteria in a bottle).


Dave

I'm confused here , how can you use organic aqua for the first month as a first time fish keeper and then switch without having an established filter or even know what you are now trying to achieve?, does the organic aqua not kill any build up of bacteria on the filter if you follow the instruction " wash the filter under tap water?"

It just doesn't make sense to me to kill off something your trying to grow just to buy more of what you started growing to kill it off again, without even knowing what you have just done, (confusing myself now!)
Why not just let it grow and do it's natural thing, rather than having to keep replacing it? At some stage the first time fish keeper will have the learn the basic's we all did at that start before these miracle remedies. It was the most interesting and fascinating parts I found in the hobby trying to understand water chemistry and still is. I'm sure AO has its advantages but I would refrain myself from directing a first time fish keeper in the AO direction due to the fact the fish maybe staying alive but the keeper does not know why or how other than you throw a bottle of this and that into the water, about as interesting as making a cup of tea. To me it seems a more valuable tool for the experienced keeper the likes of yourself Derek that understands why a fish should be removed for treatment and possibly what is the cause, with also the ability to quickly mature a filter , it seems from following the various threads on this so far that it would be more effective in the hands of an experienced keeper that actually knows about water chemistry opposed to the beginner(unless they just want a tank without the interest of the actually hobby and the various challenges we face).

DJK wrote:

igmillichip wrote:

I don't blame Dar for calling this stuff 'witchcraft mumbo jumbo' (to be honest).....the marketing of OA is a bit shite, and is one of the reasons why I would initially treat the product with suspicion.

I am a very cynical sceptic of many things....but am willing to be open-minded enough to look into the potential of OA.

It is good to see some comments from all sides on this product.

But on 'things that work' or on 'useless things'......my goodness there isn't half some shite on the shelves that people buy and believe.

How many books should be thrown in the bin because they simply tell us crap?
If I have to pick up yet one more book on marine keeping that claims crap then I'll scream out "please, oh great wizard of the earth, stars and sea, give us one book on marine keeping that does not claim the unlikely" to which I will even clutch a rose coloured crystal pyramid in one hand and the Book of Solomon in the other (all witchcraft stuff).

And to be quite honest, many test kits come into the realms of questionable black-box magic......but should be not use them?
Does a carbonate hardness test kit test for what it says on the tin? No.
Does a nitrate test kit test for just nitrates? No.
A pH test kit only tests for certain acidity or bascity....it only measures pH (not good enough really).

Where do we stop? and where do we start?
(just some philosophical thoughts.....without me being too cynical )

ian

Ian, without disrespect, things have moved on since your first days of fishkeeping.
If you want to remain in the the dark ages, so be it. This product(OA) has so far has got 100% backing from people that have used it on this forum from all levels of experience. Personally the only 'magic formula' I've used is Tetra Safestart which worked a treat. Tetra are 'in the game' 60 years now with obviously a talented bunch of scientists. After investing lots of ££ in the product why should they let out their secret(bacteria in a bottle).


Dave

No disrespect taken.

I think that you got the wrong end of the stick here.....and maybe missed that I was trying to get a point across that OA must also be considered in the same light of many things that many people take for granted as 'useful' even if those products are flawed like hell...

...and if you read my posts on the first page where I am analysing the possibility that OA is not necessarily a magic potion but could have a sound basis: you will see that I am giving potential support to a product (even though the marketing of the product is actually the thing that needs to come out of the dark ages)

ian

Zoom wrote:

It just doesn't make sense to me to kill off something your trying to grow just to buy more of what you started growing to kill it off again, without even knowing what you have just done, (confusing myself now!)
.

you're confusing us all alan lol.

as i understand it, organic is an alternative to the normal tedious (for impatient novices) cycling.
as ammonia is produced by the fish, normal nitrification is operating in the background and needs to be kept relatively retarded (washing the ever increasing bacteria in tap water).
if wishing to discontinue oa at the end of one month, all that is necessary to resume "normal cycling", is to do a partial water change (dilute the now diminishing oa) and not clean the filter in tap water (leave for now and when rinsing filter, now do so in aquarium water).
the normal nitrification bacteria already present will now quickly expand to cycle the tank "normally". as the nitrosomas etc. bacteria increase very rapidly in the now optimum conditions, the tank will be fully cycled in days or even hours.

Thanks Derek , alot more clearer now

another aspect of oa is that it appears to be more effective in neutral to harder water but then i suppose all conventional biological filters perform better in these conditions as the nitrifying bacteria dislike acidic water. (or do they?) cue ian.

Whats the result of washing the filters in tank water while continuing to use OA

derek wrote:

another aspect of oa is that it appears to be more effective in neutral to harder water but then i suppose all conventional biological filters perform better in these conditions as the nitrifying bacteria dislike acidic water. (or do they?) cue ian.

That would be right.
The nitrosofying and nitrifying bacteria will adapt eventually to an acidic pH (within reason), but there speed of growth and effectiveness of action tend to be closer to 'optimal' in an optimal alkaline pH (within reason...ie too high will kill).
This effect of pH is not just due to what the bacteria prefer, but also to do with an increased buffering potential at alkaline pHs to help prevent production of nitric and nitrous acid (acid crashes).....but that condition could also be met even in acid pH water if the alkalinity (not the pH) is reasonably high.

Now....as I live in the Dark Ages ( ) so it seems, then importance of RedOx has been invented yet !!!..... but acidic pH tend to be more oxidising, and oxidising conditions favour anti-microbial conditions (and that contributes to why we have carnivorous plants); slightly basic (ie pH over 7) conditions tend to be more reducing, and, as a good general sweeping statement, will favour increased cellular health in all (including ourselves)

ian

Sooooooo......

Just wondering will the 'Pro' and 'Con' AO people be at the meeting on Tuesday night (9th August) when the chappie from OA will be giving a talk on the product?

ian