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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)
Hi,
John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.
I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.
With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.
I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.
If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.
I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.
I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.
Thank you
Darragh Sherwin
Black back fish.
- Anthony (Anthony)
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20 May 2007 15:36 #1
by Anthony (Anthony)
Black back fish. was created by Anthony (Anthony)
My Occelatus has developed a dark half.
From his mid way to his Caudal fin. The gap between his eyes is also dark.
I was stumped for a while but after looking at my Discue notes I found some info that might be related.
Discus can develope a half back because of temperature shock. A drop of 5c is highly dangerous to Discus. I have always done cold water changes with my Malawi cichlids but Tang are a little less unforgiving. The changes were also bigger because of the disaster with the Vitamins.
Tonight he looks fine and has started to get his colour back. The problem is I have lost two fish. One Julie and one Tropheus.
There was no agro in my tank with the Tropheus and the water parameters are fine. Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 20mg/l and pH 8.4
I think the vitamins are starting to take their toll. Just remembered I never changed the new Carbon filther. Its been there nearly 1 week.
Could it be leaking back meds already even though I numerous water changes and must have changed about 150% of the water over 3 days.
Will change the carbon now. Could this be the problem.
From his mid way to his Caudal fin. The gap between his eyes is also dark.
I was stumped for a while but after looking at my Discue notes I found some info that might be related.
Discus can develope a half back because of temperature shock. A drop of 5c is highly dangerous to Discus. I have always done cold water changes with my Malawi cichlids but Tang are a little less unforgiving. The changes were also bigger because of the disaster with the Vitamins.
Tonight he looks fine and has started to get his colour back. The problem is I have lost two fish. One Julie and one Tropheus.
There was no agro in my tank with the Tropheus and the water parameters are fine. Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 20mg/l and pH 8.4
I think the vitamins are starting to take their toll. Just remembered I never changed the new Carbon filther. Its been there nearly 1 week.
Could it be leaking back meds already even though I numerous water changes and must have changed about 150% of the water over 3 days.
Will change the carbon now. Could this be the problem.
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- Zoom (Zoom)
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20 May 2007 16:35 #2
by Zoom (Zoom)
Replied by Zoom (Zoom) on topic Re: Black back fish.
Carbon filters are good for up to 4 weeks at least before saturation most of them anyway before leeching back into the water i know some of the other external filter media have an opperating life of maybe two week but this is usually the small charcoal particles, the water changes sound pretty severe 150% over 3 days thats a lot even with medication, i've never kept cichlids but i still think 150% water change is very severe in such a short space of time. Its something i wouldn't do.
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- apistodiscus (apistodiscus)
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21 May 2007 00:58 #3
by apistodiscus (apistodiscus)
Replied by apistodiscus (apistodiscus) on topic Re: Black back fish.
Anthony,
I doubt the vitamins anything to do with it. Your carbon is more likely to be the culprit.
Holger
I doubt the vitamins anything to do with it. Your carbon is more likely to be the culprit.
Holger
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- russell (russell)
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21 May 2007 02:22 #4
by russell (russell)
Replied by russell (russell) on topic Carbon
If youare using carbon to remove medicines you would be far better off doing medium water changes first. this will dilute any medicenes down and the carbon would mop up the traces. but the carbon life will be drasticaly reduced . the best way is water changes New carbon then back to normal water change regime. using for 5 weeks is realy pushing it and as you say it has released all the nasties back,
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- apistodiscus (apistodiscus)
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21 May 2007 03:43 #5
by apistodiscus (apistodiscus)
Replied by apistodiscus (apistodiscus) on topic Re: Black back fish.
You only need carbon pads if you want to get medication out of the water. Carbon pads also filter out a lot of the nutrients required to grow plants. So carbon pads aren't a good idea if you have a planted tank
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- Anthony (Anthony)
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21 May 2007 13:14 #6
by Anthony (Anthony)
I am having a serious problem at the moment and I don`t take kindly to my post being hi jacked. If any one out there has a serious solution they will be put off helping me by the off topic.
You can repost in the water chemistry section if you want as I am deleting the posts.
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Black back fish.
So should I take out the (4x) carbon filter in my Fluval 405?Carbon filters are good for up to 4 weeks at least before saturation
Its coming up to week five now I think.
What should I replace with, I have fine 'wool' media that I could use.
Sorry for the hijack Anto!
I am having a serious problem at the moment and I don`t take kindly to my post being hi jacked. If any one out there has a serious solution they will be put off helping me by the off topic.
You can repost in the water chemistry section if you want as I am deleting the posts.
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- Anthony (Anthony)
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21 May 2007 13:33 #7
by Anthony (Anthony)
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Black back fish.
I came in tonight and there was another Tropheus swimming upside down and then lying on is side. Another had what look like Costia marks on his side. It could be fighting but all the fish seem lithargic. They are not swimming in a shoal.
I am going to salt bath them and rearrange all the decor to make one big reef instead of two as I think the colony has split and they are fighting each other. If I had two different species this would not happen.
I am going to salt bath them and rearrange all the decor to make one big reef instead of two as I think the colony has split and they are fighting each other. If I had two different species this would not happen.
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- Red Empress (Red Empress)
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21 May 2007 13:47 #8
by Red Empress (Red Empress)
Replied by Red Empress (Red Empress) on topic Re: Black back fish.
Sorry your having problems mate. Have you done a Gh / Kh reading ?
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- Anthony (Anthony)
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21 May 2007 13:49 #9
by Anthony (Anthony)
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Black back fish.
tds is 1020..cement
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- Red Empress (Red Empress)
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21 May 2007 13:53 #10
by Red Empress (Red Empress)
Replied by Red Empress (Red Empress) on topic Re: Black back fish.
Is the rock in your tank pourous ?
Just a thought because the vits might have got into them and you will need to boil them all to help get rid mate.
Just a thought because the vits might have got into them and you will need to boil them all to help get rid mate.
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- Anthony (Anthony)
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21 May 2007 13:55 #11
by Anthony (Anthony)
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Black back fish.
It is porous. Think they call it ocean rock.
All of it was on the bottom bar what desolved so I don`t think any is stored in the rcoks but you never know..
All of it was on the bottom bar what desolved so I don`t think any is stored in the rcoks but you never know..
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- Red Empress (Red Empress)
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21 May 2007 13:58 #12
by Red Empress (Red Empress)
Replied by Red Empress (Red Empress) on topic Re: Black back fish.
Yep ocean rock is porous mate.
It was just a thought as rocks like that can absorb even the medicines we use to treat our fish.
It was just a thought as rocks like that can absorb even the medicines we use to treat our fish.
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- Didihno (Didihno)
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21 May 2007 14:00 #13
by Didihno (Didihno)
Replied by Didihno (Didihno) on topic Re: Black back fish.
Uncalled for Anthony I think.
I know you are having serious problem but this forum is open to advice is it not?
The least you could have done is post my Q in a new thread mate.
My advice on your problem comes from a similar situation I saw on a Yank website, but it was a foodstuff in this case.
100% water change over a week, and the girl reseeded her filter from an established one. There were losses though.
Although I respect other more experienced peoples advice here, I think you have poisoned your water and your filter. Vitamins, like a shot of vodka, have no place in your tank.
I know you are having serious problem but this forum is open to advice is it not?
The least you could have done is post my Q in a new thread mate.
My advice on your problem comes from a similar situation I saw on a Yank website, but it was a foodstuff in this case.
100% water change over a week, and the girl reseeded her filter from an established one. There were losses though.
Although I respect other more experienced peoples advice here, I think you have poisoned your water and your filter. Vitamins, like a shot of vodka, have no place in your tank.
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- Anthony (Anthony)
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21 May 2007 14:16 #14
by Anthony (Anthony)
I can`t just move posts on their own. I have to move the whole topic.
There is a section you can post your carbon quiries in. If I had not deleted the posts the heading would have been lost.
Vitamins will not poison a filther. Thats why I posted my water parameters.
I did not poison my water.. My son put the vitamins in the tank. I want info on long term damage and possible side effects on fish.
As far as I know nobody has ever had this problem so it is a whole new ball game IME.
There are sections to this forum for obvious reasons. If you are too lazy to start up a new thread then that is your problem not mine.
I never delete posts on this forum and censorship is almost none existent but I felt that the course of action taken by me was in the best interest of both myself and the members here who are interested in expanding their knowledge of fish keeping on both a laymans and scientific level.
Your carbon posts both side tracked and hindered a very important discussion were members, including myself could have lost out on very important scientific data regarding the effects of human grade vitamins and minerals on an inclosed aquatic enviroment.
I hope this bring clarity to the situation.
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Black back fish.
Uncalled for Anthony I think.
I know you are having serious problem but this forum is open to advice is it not?
The least you could have done is post my Q in a new thread mate.
My advice on your problem comes from a similar situation I saw on a Yank website, but it was a foodstuff in this case.
100% water change over a week, and the girl reseeded her filter from an established one. There were losses though.
Although I respect other more experienced peoples advice here, I think you have poisoned your water and your filter. Vitamins, like a shot of vodka, have no place in your tank.
I can`t just move posts on their own. I have to move the whole topic.
There is a section you can post your carbon quiries in. If I had not deleted the posts the heading would have been lost.
Vitamins will not poison a filther. Thats why I posted my water parameters.
I did not poison my water.. My son put the vitamins in the tank. I want info on long term damage and possible side effects on fish.
As far as I know nobody has ever had this problem so it is a whole new ball game IME.
There are sections to this forum for obvious reasons. If you are too lazy to start up a new thread then that is your problem not mine.
I never delete posts on this forum and censorship is almost none existent but I felt that the course of action taken by me was in the best interest of both myself and the members here who are interested in expanding their knowledge of fish keeping on both a laymans and scientific level.
Your carbon posts both side tracked and hindered a very important discussion were members, including myself could have lost out on very important scientific data regarding the effects of human grade vitamins and minerals on an inclosed aquatic enviroment.
I hope this bring clarity to the situation.
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- russell (russell)
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21 May 2007 14:19 #15
by russell (russell)
Anthony
Whilst I in principle agree with what you say. I think you will see most posts are Hijacked all the time. I have yet to see a topic that hasn't
Replied by russell (russell) on topic Re: Black back fish.
So should I take out the (4x) carbon filter in my Fluval 405?Carbon filters are good for up to 4 weeks at least before saturation
Its coming up to week five now I think.
What should I replace with, I have fine 'wool' media that I could use.
Sorry for the hijack Anto!
I am having a serious problem at the moment and I don`t take kindly to my post being hi jacked. If any one out there has a serious solution they will be put off helping me by the off topic.
You can repost in the water chemistry section if you want as I am deleting the posts.
Anthony
Whilst I in principle agree with what you say. I think you will see most posts are Hijacked all the time. I have yet to see a topic that hasn't
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- Anthony (Anthony)
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21 May 2007 14:23 #16
by Anthony (Anthony)
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Black back fish.
A lot of posts do get hi jacked but most are after the problem has been sorted or relevant information has been logged.
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- Didihno (Didihno)
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21 May 2007 15:05 #17
by Didihno (Didihno)
Replied by Didihno (Didihno) on topic Re: Black back fish.
Alrighty then. Fine, just a little school teacher-y.
Anyway moving on and back to your problem.
Lets look at it in the basics, assuming neither of us knew feck all about fish
(ok so one of us doesn't!).
You had a healthy tank.
Nice little eco system with no particular problems.
Your son poured a load of a substance that has no known side effects into the eco system. Despite all your logical reasoning about how vitamins are ok and sure they won't harm the fish or the filter something is wrong.
Fish are dying of a mystery illness.
If I knew absolutely nothing I would say it was the vitamins.
They are the only change to the eco system.
If you want to get scientific about it, it may not even be the vitamins them selves, it could be their carrier, it could be a preservative, it could be anything.
Whatever it is, it is inside the tank.
I say, change out all the water, clean the sand even, and reseed your filter.
When you know the water is good, then you can start looking for other reasons. I really hope you are right mate, and that you don't lose any more of those gorgeous fish that I saw, but there is just something about all this that points me to being a basic solution to a basic problem.
Anyway moving on and back to your problem.
Lets look at it in the basics, assuming neither of us knew feck all about fish
(ok so one of us doesn't!).
You had a healthy tank.
Nice little eco system with no particular problems.
Your son poured a load of a substance that has no known side effects into the eco system. Despite all your logical reasoning about how vitamins are ok and sure they won't harm the fish or the filter something is wrong.
Fish are dying of a mystery illness.
If I knew absolutely nothing I would say it was the vitamins.
They are the only change to the eco system.
If you want to get scientific about it, it may not even be the vitamins them selves, it could be their carrier, it could be a preservative, it could be anything.
Whatever it is, it is inside the tank.
I say, change out all the water, clean the sand even, and reseed your filter.
When you know the water is good, then you can start looking for other reasons. I really hope you are right mate, and that you don't lose any more of those gorgeous fish that I saw, but there is just something about all this that points me to being a basic solution to a basic problem.
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- Valerie (Valerie)
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21 May 2007 16:21 #18
by Valerie (Valerie)
Replied by Valerie (Valerie) on topic Re: Black back fish.
iron poisoning?
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- apistodiscus (apistodiscus)
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22 May 2007 00:55 #19
by apistodiscus (apistodiscus)
Replied by apistodiscus (apistodiscus) on topic Re: Black back fish.
It's not the vitamins but if there are any flavourings or preservatives in the stuff they could have caused it. Probably best to redo the tank
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- Anthony (Anthony)
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22 May 2007 03:12 #20
by Anthony (Anthony)
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Black back fish.
First of all 3 Tropheus are now dead.
I think there are 4 answers to my problem.
1 I added 4 new Tropheus to my tank. I did not change rocks or remove the established fish first. I taught having the Tropheus only 2 weeks it would be still safe to add a few same species fish. The new Tropheus are the ones being killed by the dominant male. They must have been males themsleves. Not being a Tropheus expert I taugh aggression towards new same species fish would be instantaenious. All seemed well for a few days. They new fish are there over a week now.
2 The dead Julie was just a once off and that was what threw me. I taught a disease or water quality problem was the culprit. Could have been an injury. They do like to hide in the most tight spaces between the rocks.
3 The darkening of the fish could have been stress causes by the Tropheus fighting. My leilupi were darkening a bit just like a stressed Coruleus. They could have been caught in the crossfire. Occelatus are also very territorial and will attack anything that comes into their domain. The bite marks on my hands confirm this. A leilupi or a Tropheus could give a nasty bite or shove to a small Occelatus even though they are the
Jack Russels of the fish world.
4 They might have been coming into breeding condition and this were their colours.
I think there are 4 answers to my problem.
1 I added 4 new Tropheus to my tank. I did not change rocks or remove the established fish first. I taught having the Tropheus only 2 weeks it would be still safe to add a few same species fish. The new Tropheus are the ones being killed by the dominant male. They must have been males themsleves. Not being a Tropheus expert I taugh aggression towards new same species fish would be instantaenious. All seemed well for a few days. They new fish are there over a week now.
2 The dead Julie was just a once off and that was what threw me. I taught a disease or water quality problem was the culprit. Could have been an injury. They do like to hide in the most tight spaces between the rocks.
3 The darkening of the fish could have been stress causes by the Tropheus fighting. My leilupi were darkening a bit just like a stressed Coruleus. They could have been caught in the crossfire. Occelatus are also very territorial and will attack anything that comes into their domain. The bite marks on my hands confirm this. A leilupi or a Tropheus could give a nasty bite or shove to a small Occelatus even though they are the
Jack Russels of the fish world.
4 They might have been coming into breeding condition and this were their colours.
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- apistodiscus (apistodiscus)
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22 May 2007 03:16 #21
by apistodiscus (apistodiscus)
Replied by apistodiscus (apistodiscus) on topic Re: Black back fish.
@ Valerie
I don't think it's metal poisoning of any sort. For metal ions to be released freely into the water you really need a acidic pH and quite an extreme one at that. And metal poisoning is generally caused by copper, zinc, lead and funnily enough aluminium. But for aluminium ions to dissolve in water and become poisonous you will have to go down to a pH of 4.3 which is the case with acid rain
Holger
I don't think it's metal poisoning of any sort. For metal ions to be released freely into the water you really need a acidic pH and quite an extreme one at that. And metal poisoning is generally caused by copper, zinc, lead and funnily enough aluminium. But for aluminium ions to dissolve in water and become poisonous you will have to go down to a pH of 4.3 which is the case with acid rain
Holger
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- ChrisM (ChrisM)
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22 May 2007 05:02 #22
by ChrisM (ChrisM)
Replied by ChrisM (ChrisM) on topic Re: Black back fish.
Aside from all the theorising I can tell you what you should be worried about.Water changes have to be an exact science when it comes to Tangs.Big temperature changes will kill them and they are way more sensitive than their Malawi cousins when it comes to sudden changes in water parameters.
As for the vitamins Id give up worrying about them.Any harm will have been done by now and you would see widespread effects if that was the case.The Tropheus dieing was always gonna happen,they are at a breeding age and males will get involved and the dominant guy will kill them.Eventually they will settle and get along but it is a lottery.He might decide to allow a few males live in his tank or he may decide no males can live with him?As for the Occelatus you were spot on.
Give up worrying about the vitamins,they are gone!!Use hot water from your tap in future water changes to match the current temperature in the tank (+/- 1.5C).
As for the vitamins Id give up worrying about them.Any harm will have been done by now and you would see widespread effects if that was the case.The Tropheus dieing was always gonna happen,they are at a breeding age and males will get involved and the dominant guy will kill them.Eventually they will settle and get along but it is a lottery.He might decide to allow a few males live in his tank or he may decide no males can live with him?As for the Occelatus you were spot on.
Give up worrying about the vitamins,they are gone!!Use hot water from your tap in future water changes to match the current temperature in the tank (+/- 1.5C).
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- Anthony (Anthony)
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22 May 2007 09:10 #23
by Anthony (Anthony)
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Black back fish.
I taught it was temp when I seen the dark backs. The Julie could have died a week ago and his carcass only appeared a two days ago.
I shoould have moved the rocks. I was expecting almost instant aggression so I taught all was well.
We learn from our mistakes. :cry:
I shoould have moved the rocks. I was expecting almost instant aggression so I taught all was well.
We learn from our mistakes. :cry:
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22 May 2007 12:20 #24
by lampeye (lampeye)
lampeye
Replied by lampeye (lampeye) on topic Re: Black back fish.
my female gold occellatus goes a bit on (to) the darkside when she breeds
lampeye
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