ID illness

Anyone know what this is?
I have some Killifish in a tank with mainly plecos. I have been doing cool water changes almost daily for the past 2-3 weeks dropping the temp. by 1-1.5c each time to encourage the plecos to spawn.
Water stats; Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 5ppm, PH 6.4 TDS 170
Today i noticed a pair of Aphy. Gardneri of colour and out of shape.

Here is the female. You will have to excuse the quality of the pic.
The back half from the dorsal back has gone verry dark. She is feeding, no signs of swelling and is swimming around like nothing is wrong. She obviously hasn't looked in the mirror lately.


Here is the male. It is hard to tell from the photo but it is like a cyst on the caudal penduncal just before the tail. The only thing is it appears to be pushed from the far side, like the fish is contorted.
All the fins are frayed including the lower parts of the gill covers. No sign of fungus/bacteria.


Here is the pair together.


I removed them from the tank, gave them a Methylene blue bath before placing them in quarantine.
I have seen this once before with a female guppy. I was at a loss then as i am now to what it is.
It seems similar to \"neon tetra disease\" except the female is going black instead of going pale.
Maybe it along the lines of nodular disease since the male is showing a possible cysts.
Anyone any ideas of what it is?

.

defo. sounds bacterial.. as for what im not sure.. but try a course of AB n see how it goes..how old are the fish? remember they are \"annuals\" so if they are a year or 2 it could be just old age???

I agree it is bacterial, but i am all out of amoxicillin/oxytetracycline. I would try a cocktail of Malachite Green, Formalin, but i have no formalin.
The fish are semi-annuals and i would age them at about 12 months. I got them from Sean Connaly a few months back at an ITFS meeting. They were young adults then. So they could have another good 12 months in them. I have another pair there that are fine. No signs of old age.

My main concern is the main tank has a lot of Hypancistrus species including some \"Monte dourado\" L411 fry.
If i can cure the killis i can use this treatment in the main tank if i need to.

Since i have no antibiotics i had a look at what off the shelf meds i have that might help.
Sera bactopur (which is very good). I think this is better for fungus even though they say it is also good for dropsy.
Waterlife protozin. They claim this is good for Neon tetra disease. The only thing is they don't say what is in protozin.
I decided to go with the protozin this morning and i will keep you posted on how it goes.

hey i hope the protozin works for you, i know this might sound silly but did you cheak the water that your use for water change

There are no silly questions except the ones you don't ask.
The water i use is re-mineral RO water. Not mixed with tap water.
I had trouble in the past with tap water and i swore i wouldn't go down that road again.

hi darren
the twisted peduncle looks like a deformity, very common and probably due to excessive but understandable inbreeding. the black colouring at the hind end of the fish is something i've seen before on toothcarps and some other species. i dont think it spreads to tankmates, sometimes the fish recover with good water quality and bactericide treatment. let me know how things progress.

I can't really help you with either problem, but I did notice you said \"Monte dourado, L411 fry\", congratulations, I did not know that they had spawned for you - when was that??? I would think you are pretty safe, neither ailment looks to me like it would be contagious, especially to a totally different family of fish.

Daragh

@ Derek. The twisted peduncle is only recent on this fish. I have seen this before myself from raising young in bad water, over crowding or wrong size tank for raising young. Also as you say inbreeding.
The female has started to contort today in the same spot.
The black-end she can turn on and off like a switch.
All the other fish seem fine.

@ Daragh. The Hypancistrus Monte Dourado spawned last week. True to form the clutch was small and 75% losses before i removed the remaining 5 from the cave. I have since lost one more from a fungus spur attaching itself to the eggsac.
Here they are 4 days old.

Great, that's a first for Ireland, I bet.

Better luck with the fry next time, once they have started I am sure they will go again. If they do put me on the list for a few



Daragh

Hi Darren

What is the temp in the tank?

It's no age definetly. As Drew said looks bacterial so an antibiotic whould be your best choice.

Sera baktopur is to be used against mouth and fin rot and bacterial infections but it's based on acriflavine and methylene blue, sera baktopur direct(tablets) whould be a better choice but that kills your filter as well so I don't know if it's the case. The antifungal from sera is sera mycopur.

The only product containing an antibiotic I have and whould be my choice for the black coloration of the female whould be discus magic treater. Contains antibiotics as well as antiparasitics.

You are welcome at any time to come over and pick a pair you like out of around the 80
A gardneri I have at the moment.

Let us know how protozin gows.

Ioan

@ Xeon. Temp is 27.5c (81f). Only a little to warm for the killis. I find a good guideline for killis is; To cold = faded colour and become sluggish. To hot = faded colour and become hyper and appear agitated.
The Aphy. gardneri are not the ones i got from you. Thanks again.

update.
The protozin has had no effect and the killis have gotten worse. the female can swim with her pectoral fins but can no longer use her tail. It is like the back half is gone dead. The male is in the same condition as before. Both are far from healthy.

Things have taken a turn for the worst in the main tank.
Another killi showing signs of a contorted body. In the same place as before.
Rapid deterioration of the fins on some plecos with just the fin rays remaining. Again the back end from the dorsal fin back gone pale on the plecos and rough looking. If they had scales i would say they were raised.

I have gone ahead and stated to treat the main tank with sara baktopur (acriflavine, met. blue, phenylycol, aqua purificata) . I have bakto tabs but i find the fish done eat them. Maybe its the taste of the nifurpirinol that they don't like.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

protozin contains formaldehyde (says it on the trade pack)

hi platty

dont know if this is of any use, but i got a bottle
of that eSHa 2000 stuff in petstop in blanch last week.
it claims to treat neon tetra disease along with 17 other
ailments... i dunno..

any ingredients are:

eSha 2000
6.3 mg ethacridine lactate (Rivanol)
1 mg proflavin
3.2 mg copper 2+
0.26 mg methyl orange

Keep us posted.

Thanks for that Mick and Fran.

Just to give you an idea of the condition of some of the plecs. Here is a Peckoltia sp. L134 Leopard frog pleco.

You can see where the back end of the fish is badly effected. 24 hours before the picture was taken this fish appeared to be in perfect health.
I removed some of the fungus to look at it under a micro scope. It showed nothing except the spiky fungus. So i took a scraping from under the fungus and again nothing.
Now if someone was to show me a fish in this condition and say they found nothing from a scraping i wold find it very hard to beleave. But honestly i found nothing.
One of the strangest things is it is only the back end of the fish. They are still trying to swim around like nothing is wrong.

Hopefully the hair will grow back that i have pulled out over the past couple of days.

That looks very nasty and the speed you say that it occurred is surprising. To disintegrated not just skin and fins is one thing, but you can see the strong rays are falling apart too. I am mystified, it looks like some kind of rot, that I have only previously seen on bettas - however that is never so fast to progress and does not result in fungus - just dead skin and flash. In other words, I am sorry, I have not go a clue what is doing this. I hope that you find a solution very soon. I strongly suggest that you post that photo and full details on planetcatfish, there are some very experience cat keepers there, some one must have seen this before now - it is the speed of it that is amazing me so much.

Daragh

I don't know if the simptoms at the begining are related to this but of what I know is that columnaris attacks and erodes skin and fins that fast( on your plec does look clear like fungus not columnaris but still ) I don't know how much worth of fish you have in that tank but I will do, first thing in the morning add malachite green if you have it, to the tank, you will fing dossage on google and go to a vet see if he can prescribe erytromicin or a wide spectrum antibiotic and do a serios antibiotic treatment. Really sorry to say it but if whould been one of my tanks, and only one, I whould use domestos, bacteria can be easyly moved from a tank to another with anything( nets, wet hands....), and columnaris can wipe out a whole tank in one, two days.
I really hope that i'm wrong and what you have there is something else much easier to treat.
This is only my opinion based on what u described so like any human I can be wrong, what I can do for you if you can meet me tomorow morning couse i'm leavin for hayling island in the afternoon it's to give you for a while a uv steriliser and a bottle of interpet no 6. I could find nowhere on the internet what it contains but i'm 90% that the main ingredient it's malachite green. Still i don't think the two of them will work togheder.
Best of luck and I hope you will get back with good news

Ioan

Now I know this might cos a bit of trouble but have you tried Organic Aqua. I find it works a treat with my fish esp when they are ill??

@ Daragh. I will try post a photo and some info on planet catfish.

@ nonie. I agree organic aqua dose work on sick fish. But it seems to keep the fish alive with the illness and not get rid of it. I have a tank of sick fish in organic aqua since January and they are still alive with the illness. I have only lost one fish in organic aqua.

@ Xeon. columnaris is good possibility. Thanks for the offer but i have malachite green and a UV. I just turned off the UV while treating the tank. I am heading to Hayling myself tomorrow so i will see you over their.
I will finish the course of treatment and see what greets me when i get back on Monday. I have someone keeping an eye on the fish.

What concerns me is that the black area can \"switch on and off light a light bulb\" this is almost cetianly a nurlogical contions, just like a red rash on the neck appears with in seconds of a stressful situation.

My bet it´s myscobolus cerbralis www.tu.org/site/c.kkLRJ7MSKtH/b.3596607/

Hate to be going off the thread for a moment. I have a rummy nose tetra that is extremely skinny,this is the second rummy that has had this happen. The fish doesnt look normal,it is eating but not much. Also the fish struggles to swim properly and swims somewhat sideways. I know the poor fella is coming to the end of his time,it can take a few days.It wont shoal and it spends alot of its time in the corner of the tank hiding.But when it comes out its not afraid and doesnt shy away,its just struggling to behave normal,painfully skinny and just struggling to hang on. Its almost as if it was born with this type of disabilty.
Any ideas of what this is.
Gavin

platty... any joy from catfish forum or any update. looks nasty

My apologies for not getting back sooner. I was away for a few days and have been playing catch up ever since.

Sean. It could be a strain of Myxobolus cerebralis. The only thing is there was a UV filter on the tank. According to the link ultraviolet light will kill the parasite. Also there was no signs of whirling from the fish. They didn't seem to realise there was anything wrong with them. A good find all the same.

Update; I came home Monday evening after been away and prepared for 50% loses only to find a vast improvement in the fish in the main tank. No more fungus, no half dark bodies and only one fish with a slight twist to the body. No deaths.
I removed the meds from the water and put a UV filter and a diatom earth filter on the tank. Fingers crossed this will be the end of the problem. Also the net and hose used in the tank have been bined.

The female killi in the pic. had gotten verry bad before i went away so i sent her to fish heaven. The pleco was still bad and on Thursday was breading verry heavily. She also was sent to fish heaven. The male killi is still alive with no improvement.
These three fish were the only ones removed from the main tank, treated with the same meds but did not improve like the ones in the main tank. Strange, just another thing i wont figure out.

@ Gavin. I don't know what the problem is with the fish but i would suggest destroying the rummy nose. It sounds like it wont survive to long and if it dose die the other fish could dine on it which which could result in the spread of the problem.

Thanks all for your input. I will still keep you posted, Darren.

Just another brief update.
Today i found a male Hypancistrus sp. L66 king tiger pleco fanning some eggs.
These are a couple of days old so the fish would have been still verry sick when the spawning took place.
I cant imaging the female looking at the male and saying \"i'll have some of that\". Especially the condition they were in.