Common Questions

I have been asked many times - Can I keep Discus and how hard is it.

These days 95% of Discus are Domesticaly bred, they will most proboably heve been held in the majority of shops with normal water perams regarding Ph & Hardness. If your water is Hard say over 7.5 then you may need to soften the water by running it through a peat filter . but around 7 to 7.5 you will be o.k. The only time the water comes into play is if you try to Breed them. then it becomes a wee bit more difficult if you wan't the fry to survive.


True wild discus these are called F. prefer water perameters much in keeping with what they are use to, although they will adapt but not sport there true colours,

Discus advertised as F1's are the young of the Wild Parent. they may have been reared in slightly higher Ph & Hardness.

Please post any questions you may have and I will try to give advice,

I've heard the term F1 being thrown around and never understood what it meant, learn something new every day.

Russell, how necessary is it to regularly worm Discus. Does it depend if they are wild caught or not.

Thanks,

Peter.

hi russell/ chris

I would agree that what you both say is correct, i have imported from various suppliers around europe over the years and fish are always described by f or f1. We are discussing about fish being from wild i understand we cannot be putting down f20 ect, f being wild caught fi from wild caught stock ect you get my meaning.

It seems that some people become so negative to what people post it becomes problamatic to post anything positive, also taking everything from books can also be wrong as some very good fishkeepers would say , that fish cannot read books yet.

Also has some young fish keepers just do things with trail and error.young can mean by age or by fish keeping experience. I have been keeping fish for many a year i know more then some and a lot less then others

Russell , I have asked this before but I think its worth mentioning, and before I ask I only want Russells opinion . How many times a day shoul discus be feed and what do YOU feed them ?
Also what water changes do you recommend

Russell two questions which I think are important.
1. How many times a day should they be fed and what should they be fed
2. What water changes would you recommend

I dont want a big rant to start about feeding, I believe that different things will work for differnt people but I do believe that feeding discus is a big factor in how the "get on"

there is no such thing as the F generation. P generation is the proper scientific term

Hi Peter,
To be on the safe side I de- worm my Discus when purchesed. and again after about 3 months, the best is Flubenol as it is hard to everdose with this. .Once de- wormed unless you add new arrivals they should be fine.
I keep my temp at 80% this will stop anything else, but the higher he temp the less oxegen saturation so keep the water airated.
Hope this helps.
Discus are not any different from ant otherfish . Just more expensive!!!!

I am talking layman terms. Not technical.

apistodiscus wrote:

there is no such thing as the F generation. P generation is the proper scientific term

Holgar if you are going to contradict someone it would be nice to back it up with an explanation.

My personal understanding of F0 in fishkeeping has always been that fish so labelled were wildcaught and that fish labelled F1 were 1st generation from wildcaught. I have never seen reference to P in fishkeeping circles. There was an interesting thread of planetcatfish.com recently which led me to do a bit of research, googling to see if what was being maintained by some members there, namely that fish could be F1 even though not bred from wildcaught stock was correct or not. There is tons of reading out there, but this article from cichlid-forum.com was the best summary I found. (Paragraph 2 & 3 for those in a hurry)


Cichlid Breeding Terminology, by D. Jones

Cichlid husbandry is the process of caring for and breeding the same species of cichlid to produce viable fry for one or more generations. The terminology for cichlid breeding has its roots in Genetic terminology but has evolved or been modified to convey a certain state of the genotype of a fish (Genotype is the genetic makeup of an individual). Cichlid breeders usually wish to begin with a male and female without genetic abnormalities in their genotype so they opt for wild caught specimens. This attempts to select quality parental stock. The appearance of the fish (phenotype) can be used to guess at the genotype quality, but this is just a guess.

Fish that have been obtained from their natural habitats are labeled as wild caught (WC) or sometimes a manufactured term, F0 is used to differentiate for any fish ‘wild caught’ from the wild in say Florida or a similar environment other than the fishes natural habitats. The F stands for Filial (genetic sibling) and the zero denotes no relation. This is an assumption, and genetically speaking these fish may not have significantly different genotypes. This is the first deviation from true genetic terms. In genetic terminology, the parents are labeled with a P. According to genetic terminology, to have parental stock from known separate genotypes one should have two separate collection sites or two different variants. However, this is not a goal of good cichlid husbandry.

From a WC or F0, parental stock, fry from the crossing would be labeled as Filial generation (F1). The number following the F denotes the different generations involved in breeding. F1 is the first filial or filial-one generation. This identifies the offspring as the progeny after mating or genetically crossing two types of parents with different genotypes or phenotypes (the parents are known as the P generation). F2 is the second filial or filial-two generation, i.e. the progeny of self-fertile or intercrossing F1 individuals and so on. Members of this generation are two generations removed from the original parent generation. F2 individuals have been in bred one time.

In cichlid husbandry, any generation beyond F3 is often called tank raised to denote the likelihood of genetic similarity to other specimens that may be obtained from hobby breeders in the area. For example, 50 fry forms 25 pairs that in a single generation could produce 1250 new fish. The likelihood of obtaining siblings increases with each generation.

Questions arise when performing a back cross or an outcross. For example, back cross an F2 with an F1 of the same bloodline. It is thought that this is labeled an F3 as the fry are three generations removed from the wild. However, genetically speaking, the fry could not be labeled as such, as this enters the world of line breeding.

Similarly, when out crossing an F2, for example, to a new WC, the progeny are genetically an F1, however hobbyists are expecting the F# as a tool to identify generation removed from wild. The correct label would therefore be WC x F2. Another outcross would be an F1 crossed with an F1 from another bloodline. This does not produce F2. These fish are not inbred one generation. These could be labeled for cichlid hobbyists as F1 x F1. In Genetic terminology, they are actually F1 specimens being from parents of known separate genotypes.

The key to remember, labeling should benefit the buyer, not the seller. Label all fry as clearly and simply as possible and avoid areas of confusion.
www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cichlid_breeding_terms.php



Outside of fishkeeping the following definitions seem to apply, this is from Wiki, but there are several from various sources that all essentially said the same thing.

Offspring generation. F1 is the first offspring or filial generation; F2 is the second; and so on. Successive generations of progeny in a controlled series of crosses, starting with two specific parents (the P generation) and selfing or intercrossing the progeny of each new (F1; F2; . . . ) generation.


F1 hybrid is a term used in genetics and selective breeding. F1 stands for Filial 1, the first filial generation seeds/plants or animal offspring resulting from a cross mating of distinctly different parental types. The offspring of distinctly different parental types produce a new, uniform variety with specific and/or desirable characteristics from either or both parents. In fish breeding, those parents frequently are two closely related fish species, while in plant and animal genetics those parents usually are two inbred lines. Mules are F1 hybrids between horse and donkey.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid#In_animals

Hi Damien,

Any subject will cause controversy & different oppinions, what I post is allways what has worked for ME. Depending on age & size. If I have young then waite for it. "Beefheart" as this will get them to put on a bit of bulk, usualy once in the morning and once in the afternoon as during the day they are at there most active and burn up the energy, when they seem nicely shaped I reduce this to once a day every three days, feeding them Frozed Bloodworm- Mysis - Mosquito Lava-and Flake usualy Tetra Prima.Gradualy weaning of the beefheart alltogether.I never feed after about 4pm as I don't believe in sending them to bed so to speak, on a full stomach. which means they are eager for food in the morning.
As for water changes I have a continuose feed so the water is on a permanent water change of about 15 gals per day on a 100 gal tank. What I use to do was little & often, I find that if you do a large water change all in one go, there is always the possibility if something goes wrong it would be catastrophic. besides little and often won't or shouldn't effect your water perams. My Ph stays at 6.4 and TDS at 99. if you have a STABLE set up and find you can control your perams then keep to your routine,if it works don't change it!!!
So Feeding twice a day for adults and for yougsters perhaps three, or what they can consume in say 20 mins, removing uneaten food.
Water changes 10% daily or every other day. watch your perams and when you find they are staying stable you have got it right.

Hope this helps
Russ

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Some of last years young, nowin the U.K

Regarding fish the Filial system is used to state how far removed a fish is from the wild.
Example:Discus brought from South America and sold in Kinsealy LFS would be F1.If Peter O Brien bred them he could sell the fry as F1.The fry of the F1 fish are F2.....after F3 there isnt much point in mentioning F4.

In scientific terms it is used to show how far removed offspring are from each others gene pool.
Example:If one wild caught fish breeds with a tank bred fish their fry are F1 in genetic terms.Also if 2 tank bred fish are bred and have no close genetic relationship their offspring are F1.

This is based on my understanding and I could be wrong.

Well researched daragh, some interesting info there. the value of the f system for me is to help us keepers to avoid damaging and recurring sibling in breeding. Wild caught fish are usually more expensive for various reasons (catching, decompression, cleansing of parasites and shipping.)although dishonest dealers can often mislable fish to push up the price.
I prefer f1 or f2 for quality and value, but sometimes invest in wild caughts to add pedigree and strength. (but only from trusted sources).

Hi Chris
I agree , the only difference being made was, that as mine were semi adult and came straight from the source. i.e exported direct from the Brazilian supplie,r these were true wilds and had the documentation.
From the late 50's Schultz Axelrod & many others called them F stock. whist this may not have been the true interpritation, this is what was used in communications.
I do not realy think any of this is relevance, as to day we can trace via our suppliers the source of supply. any reputable dealer can tell you from where they came.
For example if I wished to purchase Wild Heckles I would insist on seing the apprpopriate doccumentation from the supplier that was traceable.
That is why I think a good supplier is of the utmost importance. as we put our trust in them.

I feed mine nutra fin max flake, like the stuff I brought to the last LFKS meeting.
They eat it and show reasonable colour.
However I also spent money on New Life Spectrum Discus pellets, and the dozy discus let it fall by them onto the sand (occasionally picking one or two), where my Cories and Plecos devour the stuff. My water is ph 7.0 (7.4 out of tap). That downshift is due to bogwood, I also have some chemical to bring down ph but I'm afraid to use it!!!

Hi Didihno.

Your water is fine. anywhere around the 7 mark is o.k. Don't go using the Ph adjust as you will be forever chasing your tail. As I always say the best system is a STABLE one. if you maintain all your perams as they are you will be fine, as for new fangled food !! well there are so many on the market with fancy names to make you buy them, basiacaly if they take flake food stay with it.Mine are often seen nibbling the Spiro tablets and the Plec tabs, hey !! they are eating. Bloodworm- Mysis- and mosquito lava as a treat every third day.the choice is yours,offer them a varied diet.

I am not going to get into the filial system here. Not worth the hazzle. Let's just say I will call wild caught fish exactly this, wild caught. I refuse to get drawn into a discussion about a genetics with as Russell put 'laymen'.

Not even getting into the beefheart discussion again but let's just put it this way, I have never heard about discus savaging cows in their natural environment. Their diet consists mainly out of freshwater shrimp....

Flubenol gets rid of skin and gill flukes (trematoda) but not tapeworms (Cestoda). Use Prazi for to get rid of all worms, JBL's Gyrodol for example. To completely rid your fish of all worms you will have to repeat the treatment after 5-7 days since none of the medication will kill off the egg stage of worms. Dosing your fish every couple of months with Flubenol is a waste of money and completely unneccessary.

Sorry to upset the applecart on the 'new forum' where everybody is in complete agreement about everything

apistodiscus wrote:

ISorry to upset the applecart on the 'new forum' where everybody is in complete agreement about everything

I though you said you will never post again except for the SAS,
Welcome back!the admin gave me a first wriiten warning saying I am not allowed to chalange any one post except yours and Anthony, no more feeder gubby post either.

Sean,
just got weak about the discus. Promise not to post anymore

apistodiscus wrote:

Sean,
just got weak about the discus. Promise not to post anymore

Keep posting the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.

Fr. Jack wrote:

Keep posting the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.[/quote]

By all accounts I seem to be the devil

Great information from Both Russ and Daragh.

Never kept Discus but if I decided to I would not hesitate in contacting Russ for information as he seems to know a lot about them and the photo’s of his fry looked magnificent.

Daragh you put a lot of effort in explaining the F generation and I for one appreciated it, you see it all the time on fish lists WC/F0/F1. A lot of people would never have seen it before unless they were keeping fish that were not too far away from wild stock or browsing fish lists from wholesalers or on specialist sites.

Thanks,

Tom.

@Russell.. thanks for the info again.
2 more quick questions
1. Any signs of any of your discus pairing off Russell ?
2. Can anyone recommend a surface growing plant for water at 30oC

Damian

Hi Damian
Yes have a pair. but can take sometimes a few years to get them spawning, as for plants I use H Stricta, this sends of many sideshoots that can be cut off and give a nice top coverage. for worming I use wormer plus, for anything else I use Flubenol.(within reason)

You don't need Flubenol if you use wormer plus. Both contain flubendazole

Stands to reason.

For worming use Wormer plus, if you don't have worms use flubenol. Exactly what I said,
You will have to try harder than that Holger!!!!!!

[img size=150][/img]

Damien
Strictaas shown

Russell,
it's not a contest....
Wormer Plus contains flubendazole. Flubendazole is the only active ingredient in Flubenol. Flubenol will only kill gill and skin flukes. It's no use for anything else

I refuse to get into an argument with you.