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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

Endler's Livebearers

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11 Jan 2009 23:29 #1 by cardinal (Lar Savage)
Hi Lads
seen some Endler's Livebearers today and i'm thinking of adding some to a south american community tank,(current PH 7.6) with mainly tetras and cory's can anyone give me some info on these..?I read somewhere they like hard ,brackish water...is this true...?
Thanks in advance...
lar

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12 Jan 2009 01:12 #2 by platty252 (Darren Dalton)
I have kept them in fresh, soft water with out salt in the past without any problems. The last pair was about 2 years old and still going well before i passed them on to someone else.
I think they come from moderately hard water but not brackish. They also tolerate a wide range of temperatures. Just not to hot or cold.
They should be fine with a lot of Tetra's but some of the deeper bodied one's could be a bit feisty and nippy for them.
What else is in the tank?

Some of the members here have some and i think some have some for sale. Hopefully one of them can help you out.

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12 Jan 2009 01:24 #3 by cardinal (Lar Savage)
Hi platty252
Bronze corys
clown loaches
cardinals
glowlights
penguin tetras
rummy nose tetras
pristella tetras
Sml Angel fish
Siamese algae eaters

1 of the penguins can be slightly nippy but not too much,tank is 200ltr and fairly heavily planted,temp is around 24 deg,have a second tank which i'm in the process of setting up,probably going to move the loaches and the SAE's into it when it's ready.
Cheers
Lar

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12 Jan 2009 01:58 #4 by platty252 (Darren Dalton)
Should be fine with your list of fish except the Angels can get a taste for small fish.
I haven't kept Angels but i hear once they get a taste they can quickly clear a tank of small fish.

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12 Jan 2009 07:30 #5 by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)
Hi Lars,
i agree with platty you should be fine with them.

There is a lot of discussion on whether livebearers need some salt or not some do benefit it is true but in this case it is not.

They were rediscovered in Laguna de los Patos (Lagoon of the Ducks) in northeastern Venezuela by Professor John Endler, their namesake, took samples of them in 1975. they were originally discovered in 1937 by Franklin Bond.

And as far as we Know they are now extinct in the wild. As the lake is now a dump!

A wonderful little fish which displays beautifully!

Mickey Wallace & Cath Woods

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12 Jan 2009 09:41 #6 by cardinal (Lar Savage)

Should be fine with your list of fish except the Angels can get a taste for small fish.


Platty252 yeah I'm aware of the danger,but the angels are v small at the moment,so I dont think it will be a problem for a while ,my newest batch of cardinals are so big they could probably eat the angels :) ,but I have kept biggish angels before with tetras with no problems, so I'll just have to keep an eye on them



Micky...I had read about the lake ok,have to admit I've never really been a fan of livebearers in general, but these just caught my eye,very neat looking with great colours,almost as if someone had taken a paintbrush to them:laugh:

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12 Jan 2009 10:26 #7 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
I got some Endlers recently. I put them in a tank with Corys, Bristlenose and Glowlights at around pH6.8 and they seem to be perfectly fine.
In fact in the first week in the tank, the females produced 8 healthy fry.

Regards
Darragh

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12 Jan 2009 10:30 #8 by LimerickBandit (Donal Doran)
Hi Lar

I have 8 of these in my tank
They are a cool little fish and smart too they have worked out that the live brine shrimp come from the Hatcher in the corner and wait beside it for the shrimp to come out :) and they are tough 2 of them got sucked in to an external filter when I was doing some cleaning, I thought they would be dead but when I opened the filter they were swimming in the bottom and when I put them back into the tank they were grand :)




LB

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12 Jan 2009 13:21 #9 by cardinal (Lar Savage)
Well Lads
I think I'm sold on them, I promised myself there would be no more fish purchases this month but AAAAAHHHHHH TOO MANY FISH TO BUY !!!!!:P :P :P
HI HO,HI HO...To the fish shop we will go..:)
Lar

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21 Jan 2009 22:27 #10 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe)
i picked up 3 males on Sunday and popped them into my soft n slow tank, they get on great, swimming around with the dwarf rasboras who keep a keen eye on them mysteriously as the rasbora can be shy.

Last night (Tuesday) i picked up a 3 females and another male, transferred the contents: water, filter, java moss and coconut from a small breeder into larger 30 litre tank, brought the water level up to 15 litres with water from the soft n slow and popped the females and male into the tank at about 3 am to keep the 3 month old SFF company, then added another male to the tank at lunchtime today.

Low and behold i come home from work tonight and found 8 endler fry !! those guys work fast !!
sorry about quality of image, at only a few hours old tey are still very small but remarkably about the same size as a month old SFF fry

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21 Jan 2009 22:32 - 21 Jan 2009 22:34 #11 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe)
I picked up 3 males on Sunday and popped them into my soft n slow tank, they get on great, swimming around with the dwarf rasboras who keep a keen eye on them mysteriously as the rasbora can be shy and don't dart around.

Last night (Tuesday) I picked up 3 females and another male, transferred the contents: water, filter, java moss and coconut from a small breeder into larger 30 litre tank, brought the water level up to 15 litres with water from the soft n slow and popped the females and male into the tank at about 3 am to keep the 3 month old SFF company, then added another male endler to the tank at lunchtime today.

Low and behold I come home from work tonight and found 8 endler fry !! those guys work fast !!
sorry about quality of image, only a few hours old they are still very small but remarkably about the same size as a month old SFF fry


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Last edit: 21 Jan 2009 22:34 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe). Reason: typo's

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21 Jan 2009 22:40 #12 by Orca (Eoin Walsh)
That was quick.Looks like you have started off in the same way as your sff.:woohoo: :woohoo:

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21 Jan 2009 22:46 #13 by cardinal (Lar Savage)
Andrew
CONGRATS !....That's fast work all right,I've decided to get some but I think it will be next month as I have a second tank to set up and I think they will be going into it,you mentioned "soft n slow " does the soft bit relate to water PH..? what are the ideal breeding conditions for these guys... or do they need such a thing...:laugh:

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21 Jan 2009 23:06 #14 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe)
thanks Cardinal, to be honest the females were heavy laden anyway, I did nothing special it's just naturew I think, in fact I thought I might wipe them out, cos when I was moving the contents from one breeder tank to another I forgot to unplug the heater and when I put it into the water in the larger breeding tank the glass cracked and broke apart, hence I had to pick out the broken glass and broken heater (totally forgetting the electrical current running throught the heater in the water mind you !!) So while I went searching in the dark of my garden shed at 2 am for another heater the endlers were still in the bag, they were probably in it for 2 hours in all. The water temp went down to 20c, popped the bagged endlers in the tank water to acclimatise, brought the temp slowly up to 22c, released the endlers and SFF and hit the hay. Whilst getting ready for work I saw they were still alive (thankfully) and brought the temp to 24c, popped in some bloodworms (mushed) and some powdered food for the little SFF.

I can't say it is textbook, and was warned that they would breed like brine shrimp, but sure 's maybe there's something in the water here near the canal :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Andrew

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21 Jan 2009 23:16 #15 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe)
oh yeah the soft n slow relates to my original 70 ltr community tank that has an easy lifestyle with no jumpy fish in it and the current is gentle, the ph is 6.8 to 7. When i removed the danios to another tank the remaining fish started to prosper and come out a bit more, I really enjoy watching it cos everything goes in slow motion except feeding time.

this 70 ltr tank has
Male siamese fighting fish
4 dwarf rasbora
siamese flying fox
4 glowlight tetras
2 dwarf aquatic frogs
2 doublesword guppy
2 guppy
1 WCMM
3 golden WCMM
8 neon tetra's
common pleco
3 corydoras sterbai
2 amano shrimp caridinia japonica
3 crystal red shrimp (well 2 are in the filter box and won't join the party)

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21 Jan 2009 23:32 #16 by cardinal (Lar Savage)
Andrew
plenty of variety there,do the dwarf frogs do much..? I've seen them in AV a few times and wondered about them are they totally aquatic or do they need something to surface onto ...? not my thing to be totally honest but a friend has asked me about them?
Lar

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21 Jan 2009 23:43 #17 by serratus (Drew Latimer)
Hi Lar, the dwarf frogs are totally aquatic, theyre not that good on land, cant support their own weight!!!! However they are well able to escape and hop very fast!!!!!

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21 Jan 2009 23:48 #18 by platty252 (Darren Dalton)
Andrew just to let you know the Endlers will cross breed with the guppies. It is best not to pass on any fry from these. Even if the young look like Endlers there is a good chance the are hybrids.

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22 Jan 2009 00:08 #19 by cardinal (Lar Savage)
Hi drew
Yep frogs not really my scene,but good to know anyhow...:) :)

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22 Jan 2009 00:12 #20 by Daragh_Owens (Daragh Owens)
platty252 wrote:

Andrew just to let you know the Endlers will cross breed with the guppies. It is best not to pass on any fry from these. Even if the young look like Endlers there is a good chance the are hybrids.


They are Endlers.


Andrew, sounds like you had a hectic night, glad it turned out ok.

Daragh

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22 Jan 2009 00:21 #21 by fourmations (NIall SMyth)
i really like the idea of endlers
but i have an open tank

they are serious jumpers, right?

rgds

4

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22 Jan 2009 00:33 #22 by cardinal (Lar Savage)
Fourmations
yep I think they look fantastic ...so much better then guppies which I think now look deformed with their tail sizes ect....Not sure about the jumping tho...
Lar

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22 Jan 2009 00:37 #23 by platty252 (Darren Dalton)
Yes Dargh they are Endlers, but they are now in with his "2 doublesword guppy 2 guppy". Unless the "guppy's" are Endlers?

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22 Jan 2009 00:46 - 22 Jan 2009 00:48 #24 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe)
hi Darren n Daragh

i kept the females separate in the breeding tank and wont' cross contaminate them with the male guppys in my community tank, i'm only keeping male endlers in the commuity tank, sorry my earlier note wasn't crystal (little sleep last night makes me type poorly)

i don't want to hybridise them, i want to keep them endler pure :)

Daragh, yes it was a hectic night in the end but sure a great result

will try and get some video of courtship in the future

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Last edit: 22 Jan 2009 00:48 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe).

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22 Jan 2009 11:16 #25 by JohnH (John)
All I can say is you had better have plenty of spare tanks - wow, keeping both Endlers and Guppies - at the same time!

You will, I'm sure, be aware of how prolific both are, especially the former - the 'manufactured' Guppies not being quite so in more recent years - but it shouldn't be very long before you're either looking for people to give the progeny to, or finding the fry to be a excellent form of protein for your larger fish...not something I especially like to do myself nowadays.

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


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It's a long way to Tipperary.

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22 Jan 2009 11:39 #26 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe)
Hi John
My intention is to solely breed the Endlers and put the males. As I have only got male guppys in a separate tank I'll not be putting anything of the fairer sex in with them - I don't want a populatione xplision on my hands !!!

Though I like the guppys and their style in the tank, I may create a specific tank for them in the future and let them get it on with any females I acquire at that time.

Of course when i have enough Endlers I'll need to be careful about the tank I put the females into after resting them for a month without male company to ensure no more fry appear.

Thanks again
Andrew

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22 Jan 2009 12:01 #27 by JohnH (John)
Andrew,
Sorry to have to tell you this but female livebearers can have sometime three or even four broods of fry after only mating once!

Unless, of course, you mean you would keep them apart after no more broods appear?
It has been my experience though that most livebearer females go into terminal decline after stopping giving birth but this seems to 'hold off' if they mate again before this stage. I suspect it's a sort of a survival thing.

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


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22 Jan 2009 13:16 - 22 Jan 2009 13:18 #28 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe)
Hi John
thanks, yeah I'm hoping they do have more broods, though once they reach say 75% of my target for critical mass of fry in the breeding tank I'll keep them apart by removing the males and wait another month for any remaining broods to appear.

Am I right in my understadding of what you say below that if I remove the males eventually the females will start to die off and thus my breeding program stops?

If that's the case I'll move my male guppys into a different community tank and put the endlers (male and femlae) into a tank where their offspring need to work hard to survive, or maybe i'll do a great big endler tank instead !!

As I do not want to decrease the gene pool and keep a clean lineage I'll keep track of the current broods and only put in males from the original totally different source, can't remember if that's nepotism or soemthing else but you get my drift, either way i think i'll need to keep some really good notes of who is where and the family trees/genealogy, better get a bigger refill pad and plot out Plans A to Z !!

Andrew

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Last edit: 22 Jan 2009 13:18 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe). Reason: typo

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22 Jan 2009 14:57 #29 by JohnH (John)
Andrew,
I'm not trying to tell you that as a hard and fast rule, it is merely my observation from experience.
As with everything in this hobby there are exceptions, perhaps others would care to comment?

And yes, your notes will have to be very studiously kept!

One other thing, if the females continue giving birth for even two more broods I think leaving them for a month would be insufficient - which is the other point I was trying to make. IMO you would need to wait, to be on the safe side, at least a month after the last fry were born - then you could be fairly safe to assume no further fry would be coming - but with a really good feeding regime you will find that your first fry would be well ready to breed by that time...but perhaps I'm missing the point?

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


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23 Jan 2009 17:35 #30 by Andrew (Andrew Taaffe)
thanks John, I got it, I misread a previous post and it all makes perfect sense now. Thanks for advices (always seeking to expand my knowledge) and sure that's a good thing
Andrew

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