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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

New aquascaping tank

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08 Feb 2008 12:09 #1 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
Hi,

I got a 100l bow front tank for free and I want to plan an aquascape.
For filtration I am going to use an Eheim 2224 canister.
On the heating, I am undecided on whether to use undergravel heating coils or not, what are the pros and cons of using undergravel heaters?
I will also be using inline heater on the return pipe of the filter as I don't want any visible elements in the tank in addition to any other heating.
For lighting, I am planning to use Interpet Triplus T5 Compact 24W bulb, a Sylvania Gro-Lux T5 24W bulb, Interpet Daylight Blue T5 Compact 24W bulb.
All light will be on timers to so that the the 3 bulbs will only be run together for 7hrs per 24hours, with lighting provided for 16hours per 24hours.

I would like to start off without using CO2 but would eventually add a CO2 system.

I would like to use a fine substrate like sand but I understand that it can clog up easily, is there a fine girt that could be used instead? It has been suggested to use one of the Tropica substrates.

My plant list is going to be
Glossostigma Elatinoides
Lilaeopsis Mauristius
Vallisneria Americana Natans
Microsorum Pteropus Narrow
Hemmianthis Callitrichoides Cuba
Cyperus Helferi
Bacopa Australis

Are these plants compatabile, is there any plants I should avoid? What would be more suitable plants?

The only fish I will be putting in the tank, will be a dozen Serpae Tetras.
Is there any issues with this setup? Should I change some of the plants? Will I really need CO2?

Thanks
Darragh

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08 Feb 2008 14:44 #2 by russell (russell)
Replied by russell (russell) on topic Re:New aquascaping tank
Hi Darragh

I got a great bag of GRIT from Drew. it is great and the plants anchor nicely and grow fantasticaly well. its coarser than sand but finer than any gravel. allows debri to move across it without getting trapped. can't remember tha name but Drew will know.

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08 Feb 2008 20:59 #3 by serratus (Drew Latimer)
Hi Darragh/Russell, its called aquagrit by underworld, designed for planted tanks! got it in for a guy on the forum, cant remember who, but by the time he picked it up most had been sold!! Have been stocking it every since! Glad its working for you russell!

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08 Feb 2008 21:28 #4 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
How fine is the Aquagrit?

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09 Feb 2008 01:55 #5 by platty252 (Darren Dalton)
Aquagrit is about 3-5mm.
It is like ground up lava rock.

No need for the under gravel heater.
It was believed that the heat rising from the cables would help deliver nutrients to the roots of the plants. But The plants will do just as well without.

A liquid source of carbon might do instead of Co2. Try easy-life easycarbo.

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11 Feb 2008 11:36 - 11 Feb 2008 11:44 #6 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
I saw some of the Aquagrit when I was in Wackers/Tropical World getting cat food at the weekend.,
It looks like 3mm gravel, I'd like something a little finer. Can coral sand or a silica sand be used as a top layer over the aquagrit?

Darragh
Last edit: 11 Feb 2008 11:44 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin).

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11 Feb 2008 17:58 - 11 Feb 2008 17:59 #7 by Cardnim (Andrew Hanley)
Your lighting will be ok for the Glosso (at about 3 watts per gallon), but I have no idea how it grows with little CO2, so its maybe worth looking at that? Its a bit of a fussy plant.

Other than that, the plants you have picked should grow fine in that setup.

Wouldnt waste your time with the undergravel heater, as most people seem to say they dont help at all. Others would disagree though and say that they do make a difference. My opinion is that it is completely possible to do without them (I have!) and perhaps use that money for a CO2 system which is much more important.

Ive never heard of the mauristius species of Lilaeopsis, nor the australis species of Bacopa, so it will be interesting to see what they turn out like.

One thing ive noticed, you do have alot of ground cover, mossy type plants and then alot of similar reed type plants. Theres not much inbetween.

Also, the americans natans will also grow loads higher than your tank (and end up curling about on top of your water).
Cutting vallis kills it, so what about adding some of the corkscrew vallis which will not grow as tall, and also give you a unqiue leaf shape, which will be subtley different than the cyperus?
Last edit: 11 Feb 2008 17:59 by Cardnim (Andrew Hanley).

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11 Feb 2008 18:50 - 26 Feb 2008 17:05 #8 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
I got the species of Lilaeopsis wrong, it is Lilaeopsis mauritiana.
It is a reed like plant 5-10cm in height

The Glosso will probably compete with the Hemianthus Callitrichoides Cuba, so I'll go with the Hemianthus only.
I'm going to leave out the Vallisneria and keep the Cyperus Helfrei for the background.
So now my plant list will be going from the background to the foreground:

Cyperus Helferi 20-35cm

Microsorum Pteropus Narrow 10-20cm

Bacopa Australis 7-30cm

Lilaeopsis Mauritiana 5-10cm

Hemianthis Callitrichoides Cuba 3cm

It will probably look pretty sparse but I don't want to use broad leafed plants

Darragh
Last edit: 26 Feb 2008 17:05 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin).

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11 Feb 2008 19:52 #9 by Cardnim (Andrew Hanley)
No, I dont think it will look sparse at all Darragh, thats a good list and well thought through. I think it should look great.

Are you going to have anything like a focal point in the tank (wood, rocks, etc) or just the plants and substrate?

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12 Feb 2008 12:51 #10 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
I would like to use obsidian rocks as a focal point but is there an LFS that sells Obsidian or a similar black quartz type rock?

I still have to work out what my substrate will be, my thinking so far is to use a layer of aquagrit 2cm high to cover the base. Then blanket that base layer with a layer of filter wool.
Place a 2-3cm high layer of Tropica substrate on top the filter wool and cover this with another layer of filter wool. Cover the filter wool with a layer of Aquagrit and then top off the aquagrit with a coral sand. The substrate will slope from 6cm in the front to 10-12m in the background.

Is the Tropica substrate enough on it's own or do I need to add a root fertilizer?
The last time I setup a tank I used the same layering except I used aquatic soil and mixed with a red fertilizer that I got from Dave Whelan (Trop Shop) but I don't remember the name of it.

Darragh

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12 Feb 2008 13:46 #11 by Cardnim (Andrew Hanley)
The tropica substrate is enough on its own until the iron and other nutrients within it are depleted. This varies from substrate to substrate, but usually is around the 6 month mark.
Tetra should be able to tell you (you could contact Dave Hulse at Tetra if you cant find it on their website)

As for all that filter wool... thats a new one on me. Ive never seen or read about anyone using this on a planted setup. I would be very cautious about this as its not going to be ideal for the roots to grow in, and it may also cause compaction of the substrate underneath, and at worst case scenario, may allow anerobic bacteria to colonise the lower depths of the substrate meaning you get all sorts of potential nasty problems.

How come you are doing this with the filter wool. Im very interested to know the theory behind this :)

P.S. the obsidian rock will look stunning alongside the emerald green of the glosso and other plants you have.

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12 Feb 2008 15:11 #12 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
The filter wool acts as a barrier between the different layers, so that the soil doesn't seep into the gravel and compact the gravel. So it acts as a barrier.
The filter wool is not the finely woven, so plant roots can root through it.
This has worked pretty successfully in my current tank for 4 years now but I am not adverse to trying some other material as a barrier between layers or having no barrier at all, but how to I stop compaction of the layers?

Darragh

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12 Feb 2008 15:18 #13 by Cardnim (Andrew Hanley)
Interesting point Darragh, but Im not sure compaction and mixing between different substrate layers is such a problem. Unfortunately we have definately waved goodbye to my sphere of knowledge and experience so I could be completely wrong!! :huh:

I have two thoughts however:
1 - we ideally want to closely emulate nature, which has no filter wool and plants root without problems into their substrate.
2 - planted tank \"gurus\" such as Tom Barr and Takashi Amano dont use filter wool.

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12 Feb 2008 17:02 #14 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
If Takashi Amano and Tom Barr don't use filter wool, that's good enough reason for me not to use it.
Are my 4 layers ok? I have never used sand in an aquarium before, so what is it like for maintenance?
Will the plants be ok with coral sand? I don't mind using silica sand but I prefer the whitish colour of coral sand

Darragh

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12 Feb 2008 17:46 - 12 Feb 2008 17:50 #15 by Cardnim (Andrew Hanley)
Your plants willbe fine in coral sand, its your fish I would be more concerned about.

You seem to be using a mix of two types os substrate, then sand on top. Usually it would be either the tropica OR the aquagrit, not both. Id personally go for the Tropica as Ive heard good things about it (though I use the JBL AquabasisPlus myself)

The Aquagrit is going to lower your pH, while your coral sand is going to raise it.
I wonder is that intentional to try and maintain equilibrium?

Your undergrowth plants such as the glosso will reprocuce by sending out runners near the top of the substrate, and the sand isnt going to have any nutrients in that, but thats ok, they'll go deeper to find them. Just keep the sand layer about 1\" in depth at max I think.

Just want to say again though, this is all based on reading and what ive heard from other fishkeepers as I havent used tropica, aquagrit or coral sand :)

P.S. problems associated with using coral sand arent going to be removed by changing to silica sand, so I think if you decide to go down the sand route, then you might as well get what you prefer i..e the coral sand.

*** EDIT *** oops, forgot to say that if in the off chance you are using undergravel filtering (dont by the way!!) then definately dont use sand. i think it clogs it or compacts or something bad :)
Last edit: 12 Feb 2008 17:50 by Cardnim (Andrew Hanley).

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12 Feb 2008 18:09 #16 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
I thought AquaGrit was inert and lacked nutrients, so I using it as a gravel layer.
I didn't realise that AquaGrit will lower the pH, so I might use the AquaGrit as a base layer to maintain equilibrium in the setup as the Serpae Tetra require a pH of 5.5 to 7.5

Darragh

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12 Feb 2008 20:15 #17 by Cardnim (Andrew Hanley)
Maybe Im thinking of something else, but if this is it then its got plenty of nutrients:
www.lifeforceonline.co.uk/aquarium_subst...ropical_page306.html

Also, the more I think about the coral sand for a planted tank, its making me worried.
Ive read alot about the use of sand substrates for plants and basically, while it can be done, you are creating potential problems for yourself.

If there were anything else you could use that would have bigger grain size but would give the same appearance; that would be perfect. What about coral gravel? Ive seen that in a few shops, same stuff as coral sand but bigger.
Think it might be a bit sharp for bottom dwellers and things like Cichilds which like to dig.

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13 Feb 2008 11:48 #18 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
Coral gravel will cause the pH and hardness to go up but this should be balanced out by the aquagrit layer.
I'll just have to put a sample mix of the 3 layers together for a few days and see what proportions of substrates will balance out the pH over a week or 2.
Sharp edges won't be a problem, I am only going to have a dozen or so serpae tetras.

The other option is to use a 2-3mm white/golden gravel like white quartz but I haven't found anywhere one the internet that supplies it. The closest I came was Tex-Blast, a sand blasting sand with a grain size of 2-3mm available in the US but would cost a fortune to ship here.

The more I think about this, the more I am inclined towards the colour of silica sand, if I could achieve that colour with a fine gravel, I'd be happy

Darragh

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13 Feb 2008 18:10 #19 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
I have been reading about using Sandblasting sand, it typical has a 2-3mm grain size and maybe a suitable alternative.
I need to read a bit more about it but it seems to be inert

Darragh

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14 Feb 2008 23:03 #20 by platty252 (Darren Dalton)
The Aquagrit in the link is not the same as the Aquagrit referred to originally.
The one Russell was talking about is made by underworld.
I have used this and it did not lower the ph. Or a least not a noticeable amount.
If you mix this with coral sand the chances are the ph will be to high for your Tetras.
You could use a plant substrate were it will be planted heavily (back of tank) and use sand were it will be seen.
Just put a sprinkle of peat moss under the sand.

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18 Feb 2008 15:14 #21 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
Darren,

I'm not going to go with coral sand or gravel. I have been researching on some of the american planting forum and blasting sand is what I am thinking of using

My current thoughts are to use a 2-3cm layer of aquagrit as a base. Place a 2cm sloping to a 10cm layer of the Tropica substrate.
I'll top off the Tropica substrate with aquagrit in the background and most of the foreground except where I want to have the substrate visible.
In the visible foreground, I'll put either blasting sand or silica sand. All the plants will be planted into the Aquagrit/Tropica substrate so the sand shouldn't cause me any issues, hopefully :unsure:

Thanks
Darragh

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18 Feb 2008 21:23 #22 by platty252 (Darren Dalton)
I found the main advantage of the aquagrit was it is porous so small foreground plants can easily take hold and aren't disturbed to easily.

If you are looking for blasting sand ring some of the tool hire shops. They should be able to point you in the right direction.

Good luck with the tank.

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25 Feb 2008 11:21 - 25 Feb 2008 11:26 #23 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
This is the tank I got for from a friend. It has been sitting in his shed for a few years.


It is a 100 litre Aquatlantis tank with 1x 18W T8 bulb.
Over the weekend I visited our sponsor Tropical World at Wackers on the Long Mile Road.
Gavin gave me some great advice and I bought the following items for the new setup:
  1. Eheim Ecco 2231
  2. Rena Heater - This is a cool heater that can either be used on the input or output stage of an external filter and is pretty indestructible, I'll add a photo of it later
  3. Aquagrit 25Kg
  4. Tropica Substrate 5l
  5. Tropica NP fertlilzer
I striped out the internal Bio filter that was attached with black silicone to the rear glass.
I cleaned it down with just a brand new sponge and lots of cold water.
I filled up the tank with cold water and left the water standing for 30 mins to ensure there was no leaks.
I siliconed the bulb clips in place for the compact T5 bulbs and have left it over night to cure.

I have to order the rocks, plants and sand. During the week I will be setting up the equipment and preparing the substrate.

Hopefully next weekend I can add plants

Darragh
Last edit: 25 Feb 2008 11:26 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin).

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25 Feb 2008 12:43 #24 by Cardnim (Andrew Hanley)
Thats a lovely tank Daragh, should look good once complete.

How much light have you got in there now?
Did you keep the pitiful 18W T8, or replace it completely with T5s?

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25 Feb 2008 13:35 #25 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
I currently have a Interpet 24W T5 Triplus Compact and I will be adding another 24W T5 compact during the week.
I will eventually add a 3rd 24W T5 but I'd like to keep initial cost down, so I will keep the 18W T8 for the moment. If I am not happy with the lighting in the short term, I will replace it sooner.

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26 Feb 2008 10:14 #26 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
Here is the tank after it has been cleaned up and the internal filter remove:


This is the hood with the 24W Compact T5 added:

I have enough room to just about add another 24W Compact T5 but it will get tight.
Therefore I will remove the T8 assembly and cut the inner hood assembly to make room for 2 additional T5 bulbs. This will also give me enough room to install more powerful bulbs, up to 55W Compact T5s.
Unfortunately, the hood doesn't really allow much room for standard T5 bulbs and I can't use an overhead luminary, as we have a few cats at home and they could get into the tank if it was open.

This is the heater that I bought

It will act as the return of the external filter inside the tank

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26 Feb 2008 12:10 #27 by tanks_alot (Denis Coghlan)
Hey Darragh,

Just out of curiosity is the hood itself load-bearing or is all the weight on the two glass supports that I can see. If the hood is just superficial I would just cut the thing to pieces and DIY a new protection lid. The other concern that I would have is that the tank looks very tall and by placing the Compact T5 on the inside of the lid it will be increasing the distance between the light and plants (i.e. a greater distance for light to pass through the water). How tall is the tank? When I look at the picture of the tank again I would nearly use the two support struts to support a \"very waterproof\" DIY light kit. Great looking tank by the way.

Regards

Denis

Lead me not into temptation, For I can find it myself!

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26 Feb 2008 14:59 #28 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
Hey Denis,

The 2 pieces of glass are braces for the bow front. They don't bear any weight but they are capable of bearing a few pounds. The hood sits onto the glass rim, so it is load bearing.
The lid that is proped up with the compact sits on top of the hood.

I think the tank is around 18inches tall, but I'm not sure, I'd have to measure it when I get home.

I was planning to cut up the hood to remove the bulb and ballast unit and cut anyway as much of the hood as possible leaving only a lip for the the lid to sit onto. All the bulbs would be attached to the lid.

Thinking a bit more about a DIY lighting unit, I could possibly make a unit to sit onto those glass braces. I'll try come up with some drawings later of what a possible lighting unit would look like.

Darragh

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26 Feb 2008 17:20 #29 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)
I have added one more plant to my list
Utricularia graminifolia
This will be my main foreground plant

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27 Feb 2008 10:11 - 27 Feb 2008 10:12 #30 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin)

Above is the dimensions of the tank, I'll add dimensions for the bracing glass this evening.

I tested the bracing glass to see if it could support some weight. I put 10 litres of substrate onto one of the braces and left it for 3 hours and it was supported it.
I reckon from that test, the bracing is capable of supporting 10-12lbs over both braces.
Last edit: 27 Feb 2008 10:12 by darragh (Darragh Sherwin).

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