Algae problem

Hi there,

As most of you probably know, I've been doing a Fishless Cycle on my first tank, and I hope to finally add fish next week.

During this cycle I've got a fair bit of Algae, both on the glass and on the substrate/decorations. I've cleaned it when I can, and I did a big water change and clean a week ago.

However, there's lots of it again, just from the last week, as the attached pictures show. Most of it is near the front of the tank, so I'm wondering if too much light is an issue? The tank is in a small enough room, and the tank is facing a window, though it's approx. 6 foot from the window, and the window never gets 'Direct' sunlight (it faces north). At the moment I have the lights on for 7 hours (2pm-9pm) for my plants, but I'm wondering if I should reduce that. And if I do reduce it, should I get them to come on later or turn off earlier? I can't tell if it would be better for them to be off while it's bright, or off while it's dark.

Apart from light, I've read that high Nitrates can also add to Algae issues, and I do have high Nitrates due to the Fishless Cycle. Even after the 85% water change they still seem to be around 40-80ppm. I did a 33% change last night, and will do two more before next week, so I'm hoping that will help. I'm wondering if using something like JBL NitrateEx in my filter might help with this, but I don't want to be adding too many 'solutions' to my tank, as that's just more variables to have to keep an eye on.

Unlike the rest of the tank, I'm getting some white 'cloudly' algae growing on some wood in the back right hand corner. It seems to be the only place this type is growing (you can kinda see it on the bottom left of the wood in Pic 4). Any ideas if this is something different to 'standard' green/brown algae?

Finally, I do hope to get some Otos and Nerite Snails which should help too. But I've heard that Otos prefer a mature tank, so that's a while away, and I keep hearing horror stories of all the Eggs that Nerite (both Zebra and Horned) Snails leave (even if they don't hatch).

Any suggestions please, I'd love my tank to be looking a lot better than this! Thanks...

J.

Hi Jason, it looks like your fishless cycle isn't working too well or its working to well.
I don't know what method you used to fishless cycle but it looks like you used some form of ammonia and maybe a bit much of it.

Another possibility is you used aquabasis. but instead of putting it under the manado you mixed it through it causing an excess of nutrients in the water leading to algae issues.

The Nitrate level is high for a tank that has yet to have fish added.
Strange thing is the algae on the front glass and spotted around the tank is actually a bacteria, its cyanobacteria.
It normally appears when the nitrate is low not high.

I noticed the plants look like they need more food. I would also add some fast growing stem plants. These can prevent algae on the slow growers you show in the photos.

there are a couple of ways to approach this and clean it up but this is what I would do.

1 I would remove all décor (ornaments/wood/rocks) and give it a good scrub under the tap. Then place them in a bag or bucket to be covered for a week.
The idea here is to kill off the cyanobacteria. It needs light to live so keep them in complete darkness.

2 Use something like a credit card to remove this algae (cyanobacteria) from the glass and silicone.
you need to syphon this out while you scrape it off. You may need a helping hand for this.

3 I would syphon off a very small layer of the substrate. I know this sounds like drastic measures but its the best way for a quick fix on the tank.
Syphon it through a net in to a bucket to collect the substrate. You will be adding it back in later.
You will need to keep this in a bucket or bag for a week, just like the décor. Complete darkness is essential.

4 Water change, a big one. If it was me I would change all the water. Think of it as resetting the tank and flushing away your problems.
You will also need to do 30-50% water changes every 2-3rd day for the first week and a couple of smaller changes the following week.

5 Lighting: assuming you are using suitable bulbs and are not old, reduce the photo period down to 4-6 hours a day. Keep it at this for a couple of weeks before gradually bringing it up to 8-10 hours a day.

6 if you are not using Co2 use easycarbo. This will give some carbon to the plants to aid growth but it will also slowly poison algae.
Use daily and if algae appears you can spot dose it or double the recommended dose (max).

7 After a week passes you can wash off the substrate and décor to add back in to the tank.

It may sound like a lot to do but IMO the quickest long term fix.

Darren.

hi.
i had same in my 200L. the white staff is typical for newly setup tanks, especially with some wood in it, in my tank it appear on wood first, i bought 4 sucking loaches and they did a graete job, removed all the white sh... and there was lots of it, i've read it can go away it self after 2-3 weeks as well.

the algaes can adopt to new conditions much faster then regular plants. Platty is right, follow as many of his advices as you can, also the one with removing top layer of the manado, i did same in my 2 farm tanks few weeks back (currently fighting with algae as well ), keep your photoperiod arround 5-7 hours a day, doesn't mater if it's in the morning or evening.

IMPORTATNT: blind your room as much as you can to reduce sun light to the minimum, when i reduce photo period in my main tank (it is over 3 meters from the window) to 8 hours (11 before), it start at 2pm and finish at 10pm, some plants start to bow in to window direction.
in your case even small amount of sun light every day can ruin your work.

good luck, and let us know about progres

Peter

Thanks for your reply Darren (and Peter), I appreciate it.

However, I have to be honest, my first reaction is 'bloody hell, really?'! I really wasn't expecting it to be that much hassle and work...

I've been following this fishless cycle (The Add & Wait Method here: www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitr...-fishless-cycle.html; it basically means I add approx. 5ppm of Ammonia and when it's 0 I add it again and so on until I get Nitrites to 0 as well ) for over a month now. In fact, I've spent over two months getting all this ready with the aim of getting fish for my birthday next week. I really felt like I was on the last stage of the journey, and as much as my patience has been commended on this forum, I'm running out of it at this stage.

Anyhow, to address some of your questions. Yes, I have Aquabasis under the Mandado, but I didn't mix it, the Aquabasis was put in first (and only in the back left half of the tank where the plants are) and then the Manado was added on top of it. Apart from the possibility of using the gravel siphon a little too 'deeply' maybe, I can't see how they'd be mixed.

I've been giving the plants 3 drops of Ferropol 24 every day, and approx. 3ml of Easy Carbo every day as well. I had some Vallis in the back of the tank, but they all died during the cycle.

I did an 85% water change a week ago, so would doing an even bigger water change now really make that much of a difference?

The two bulbs are brand new, a 45W T5 Day Bulb and a 45W T5 Nature Bulb. I'm pretty certain the Day bulb is at the front of the tank, and the Nature Bulb is at the back.

Apart from the Fishless cycle itself, everything I've bought and used has been recommended to me either here on in the shop I go to in Dublin.

So, basically, you're saying I need to take out all ornaments, and the top layer of substrate, wash them all, and leave them completely in the dark for a week. I also need to clean the glass/silicon as well, and then do a full water change and other water changes after that.

If I do all that, will that in any way 'reset' my cycle? And will I still be able to add fish next week (assuming I've done the full water change of course)? Or is that now postponed?

Thanks...

J.

Jason I can sence your frustration with the whole process. Wish I had some easy solution for you.as your ammonia and nitrite are 0 then I see no reason why you cant add some fish soon. Once your new fish settle in then deal with the algae. From what I know lagae wont do fish much harm only looks ugly. Once you see fish in your tank im wishing you can have new heart and encouragement.

A 100% water change will "NOT" start your cycle all over again..."ONCE" YOU TAKE YOUR FILTER MEDIA OUT OF THE FILTER AND PUT IT IN A BUCKET/CONTAINER FILLED WITH WATER TAKEN FROM THE TANK DURING THE WATER CHANGE....Dont wash or clean the filter media whilst carrying out the water change..Just let it sit in the bucket/container of tank water.......

After you change your water place the filter media back in the filter and turn it back on...Then continue to add your daily Ammonia dose until you get fish....

Changing water dose NOT affect biological bacteria in filter media...OVER AGGRESSIVE MEDIA CLEANING AND LETTING THE MEDIA DRY OUT "DOES".....Once there is water flowing through the filter that contains an Ammonia source the bacteria will stay alive.....

Also It takes many hours sometimes a day or 2 (im not exactly sure how long) without a food source (ammonia) before bacteria starts to starve and die off in the media....

So! You can safely let your filter media sit in water "taken from the tank" for a while whilst carrying out maintinence without the fear of losing your bacteriia colony....

As regards ALL algae......The best way to combat it is with 50% weekly water changes, sensible fish stocking levels, sensible feeding regime, live plants, dosing with Easy Carbo and sensible daily lighting cycles....

You may think 50% weekly water changes are a bit much but in my experience it works really well in the fight against algae, fish health and plant health......

What made your tank go green was the high Nitrogen levels (Ammonia, NitrItes & NitrAtes are all Nitrogen forms) ....

In a cycled tank the Nitrogen is in the form of NitrAtes...Keep these at a minimum and you reduce the chance of algae growth....Hence 50% water changes...50% weekly is comfortable for the fish (trust me ive been doing it for many years) whilst at the same time its diluting unwanted NitrAtes at a large level...Fresh water fish and plants LOVE FRESH WATER....It also helps replace essential minerals fish and plants need and love but which deplete over time......

Finally take out all your decor, clean it as best you can by hand then let it dry out in a dark place for a few days...that will kill the algae growing on it...

Hope this helps with your frustration!

Want to add this also!

You can only keep NitrAte levels in your tank as low as they are in your tap water...

Ideally You should aim for NitrAtes at a max level of 10...But 20 is more than acceptable....

You should test your tap water NitrAte level as this is your starting level...

Remember it is impossible to have NitrAte levels lower in your tank than the level in your tap water...

I would also suggest not adding fish until you get your NitrAtes right down....

Why dont you take out all the decor now and wait until the day your getting fish(your bday) to do your 100% water change....Keep dosing the ammonia in the mean time...

This will save you a tonne of work changing water....

Or!!! change 100% water and decorate the tank again the day before you get fish....

Thats what i would do:

1. clean the tank and staff thats in it from algaes
2. do water change as much as you can
3. do water test for ammonia and nitrite, if it's 0 thats ok, if not,
do another water change until you get to 0 (as many times as needed)
4. i didn't see many plants on your pictures, i presume your tank is not fully planted,
STOP doseing Ferropol 24 and Easycorbo.
5. i dont know what is your filtration but if there is ceramic in it try to get some ceramic from
already settled filter and put it into yours
6. lighting: photoperiod 6 hours/day, reduce sun light to minimum
7. leave the tank for a few days and do water test again, if it's 0 do 25% water change day before you
put your fish in to the tank

the first 6 points you should manage within 1 day,
that is the easiest way i think, especially that there is not much time left to your birthday

cheer up, you will get there

P.S. gunnered1972 is right about the tap water, test it as well !!!

Thanks for all your replies, advice and support! Sorry if I sounded dramatic, it's been one of those days.

Anyhow, to quickly answer the question, I tested the tap water a few days ago, and the Nitrates are around 5ppm, so I'm happy enough with that.

Now that I've got over the 'how much work do I have to do?' stage, I'm trying to come up with a plan.

I've already reduced the lights to 5 hours and closed the blinds in the room. Tonight I'm going to remove the ornaments and scrub them and leave them in a covered bucket so they're in the dark. Just a quick question, should they be left dry, or can I leave them covered in water (especially the wood)?

On Sunday I'm gonna put the filter media into some tank water and then siphon up the top later of substrate and keep that to one side, in a covered bucket. Then I'll try to clean the glass and once that's done I'll remove all the water I can and replace it. I don't have enough containers for 145L of water, so I'll treat it with Easy Life Filter Medium after I put it in the tank.

Then, a few hours later, after the Filter Medium has mixed a bit, I'll put the media back in the filter and get it up and running again.

All going well, by Sunday evening I'll have a clean tank wth a full water change. I'll use a bit of Ammonia to keep the filter happy too. Obviously, the full water change should reduce the Nitrates as well. So, apart from adding some Substrate and Ornaments back in after a week or so, the tank should in theory be ok for Fish on Wed.

How does all that sound?

Thanks...

J.

Actually, a thought occured to me. Do I need to change the water in my Filter? I've a JBL Cristelprofi 901, which has approx. 5L of water in it. That's around 3.5% of the water in my tank. And I'm guessing that as it's dark inside the filter, there are none of these cyanobacteria in there (as leaving them in the dark kills them).

So, can I just turn off my filter and leave it alone while changing all the water in my tank? For the sake of 5L is it ok to leave it? Or is it just a false economy and I'm better getting rid of it?

Thanks...

J.

Jasonb wrote:

Actually, a thought occured to me. Do I need to change the water in my Filter? I've a JBL Cristelprofi 901, which has approx. 5L of water in it. That's around 3.5% of the water in my tank. And I'm guessing that as it's dark inside the filter, there are none of these cyanobacteria in there (as leaving them in the dark kills them).

So, can I just turn off my filter and leave it alone while changing all the water in my tank? For the sake of 5L is it ok to leave it? Or is it just a false economy and I'm better getting rid of it?

Thanks...

J.

Jason, i just did some research.
Nitrifying bacteria that start her life on ceramic media (but not only) of every filter after about a week from d-day is removing ammonia from the water, same ammonia is perfect food for algaes as they use very little energy to consume it (the fish gain ammonia slowly and you inrease its level sudenly), plus you add ferts (Ferropol 24) plus co2 (EasyCarbo) plus extra sun light. Low amount of plants couldn't win with algaes in this environment. That coused your problem at the beginning, i think.

Change as much water as you can, 5L. in the filter as well, with out any extras added to the water, just tap water, leave it for few days, day before b-day test water, if it's ok just put your fish to the tank.
Nature will do the job.

Make it SIMPLE not complicated.

Peter

I will try keep this short Jason. Looks like you had enough to read already.

Yes you can leaver the filter, just turn it of for the water change.
It is best to leave the décor dry.

I commend you for fishless cycling but this also needs to be done with caution.
Looking at the tank I would guess the ammonia levels peaked very high while you were still dosing ammonia. This can be to much for some plants (the vallis) and algae loves it.

You should be able to do the whole lot in a day.
remove/clean décor.
Clean glass/silicone.
Syphon manado off top layer.
Syphon out as much water as possible. It doesn't have to be all of it.
Refill from tap and treat water in tank.
Restart filter.
ready for fish (ammonia+nitrite 0ppm) in a couple of days.

the idea of changing a lot of water is to reset the tank.
After you were dosing the ammonia and the ammonia and nitrite came down to zero, that was the time to add the fish.
Once you keep adding the ammonia at that amount you just push up the nitrate.
if you decide to add more ammonia add a lot less. Maybe 1ppm.
Don't stop feeding the plants.

platty252 wrote:

............Don't stop feeding the plants.

Platty, I must disagree. As far as i know you shouldn't use any ferts in the new tank sooner than 3-4 weeks from d-day untill tank stabilize it self, after that you can start doseing ferts slowly, especially if you have very little plants. Correct me if i'm wrong i start my 2 x 54L. farm tanks with in-vitro plants with ferts and co2 from day 1 (light around 0.6W/L.) and i had first algaes on day 4-5, i think.

Jason, by the way, did you say you have 2x45W t5? thats 90W/145L. gross, in my main tank full of plants i have 60W/200L. gross (no ferts or co2 - just fish sh... and uneaten food), if you go with pure tap water only remove 1x45w bulb until you start fertilization.

Thanks for your replies. It can be a little confusing for a newbie when conflicting advice is given, but I do understand that there are lots of different ways to do this!

Just so you know, I added 5ppm of Ammonia on Day 1, then didn't add anymore until Ammonia hit 0 again. When Ammonia did hit 0 I added another 5ppm, and kept doing that (adding 5ppm when Ammonia hit 0) until my Nitrites dropped to 0. Once that happened I only added 1ppm of Ammonia daily to keep the filter going, and Ammonia and Nitrites were always back to 0 again the next day.

I probably should also add that I have a 5 month old daughter, so doing it all in one day isn't necessarily possible! That said, I'm hopeful to get the big water change / clean glass / remove some substrate done tomorrow. The ornaments are already scrubbed and in a bucket. If I get it all done, that gives me a couple of nights to make sure the chemistry of the tank is ok before I add fish on Wed. And then next weekend I can add the substrate and ornaments back, give the fish something interesting to swim around!

I do plan to get more Vallis at the back as well. Is having the two 45W bulbs too much at the moment? Will it be too much after I add Vallis? It's funny, I went with live plants over fake ones as it's meant to help with Nitrate and Algae!

J.

Jason is your head spinning enough by now . You need to change as much of the water as possible it contains algae spores and clean the top layer of substrate, that will take you 1 and half hours, scrape your glass clean 10 mins. Clean your ornaments and plants with sponge, less than 1hour. Refill your tank and treat water with conditioner, I use prime. Leave it for 2 3 days, test water and if ammomia and nitrite is 0 add your fish. Sit in your fav chair with a well earned beer/cuppa and enjoy looking at your fish .

Dont forget by adding fidh you are adding ammonia to feed your bio filter.

paulv wrote:

Dont forget by adding fish you are adding ammonia to feed your bio filter.

Small amounts of algae wont harm your fish just looks ugly. Sadly if not treated small amounts quickly takes over your tank and at that stage sucks all the o2 from the water killing your fish and bio filter. Over feeding is the main cause of lagae growth. Baby fish need tiny amounts of food 3 to 4 times a day while adult fish feed every second or third day.

Thanks Paul! Yep, I will get there, and come Wed evening I'll have a few Sterbas Corys finding their way around their new home, and I'll be enjoying a Dr. Pepper (my poison of choice! ).

And don't worry, once there are fish added I won't be putting Ammonia anywhere near the tank! I'll just be adding 1ppm every day or two between now and Wed to keep the filter happy, the last thing I want now is for the bacteria to die out in the filter and my cycle to reset!

Will post an update when all the work is done...

J.

@ Jason, try to get your Hands on Tetra Nitrate removing Pearls, incredible stuff, it kept my Planted Tank Algae free for over a Year, me and frequent water changes are bad Bed fellows and Algae, spot Algae to be exact, appearing on the Glass was an indication that the Pearls needed replacing. Superb stuff but I think you have to get it off the interweb.

H.

@ Jason, try to get your Hands on Tetra Nitrate removing Pearls, incredible stuff, it kept my Planted Tank Algae free for over a Year, me and frequent water changes are bad Bed fellows and Algae, spot Algae to be exact, appearing on the Glass was an indication that the Pearls needed replacing. Superb stuff but I think you have to get it off the interweb.

H.

reefbuilders.com/2010/05/24/nitrateminus...ainstream-biopellet/

So good it had to be said twice!

H.

Platty, I must disagree. As far as i know you shouldn't use any ferts in the new tank sooner than 3-4 weeks from d-day untill tank stabilize it self, after that you can start doseing ferts slowly, especially if you have very little plants. Correct me if i'm wrong [/quote]

Hi Porca. There are a couple of reasons why I say don't stop feeding the plants.

Firstly when plants are sent to a retailer and placed in there selling tanks they do a bit of a nutrient dump. releasing some of the nutrients they had stored. Usually within hours of been placed in the water.
Feeding from day one helps them establish roots faster then start to show growth.
IME if they are left for a while without feeding they will use up the last of there reserved nutrients and the older leaves will soon show deficiencies and fall off.

Secondly in picture two the plants look like they need food. Possibly potassium (patches of yellow and holes).

In vitro plants don't seem to have this problem dumping nutrients and I don't know why or understand why you got algae so soon after set up. Maybe to much light the first few days. A wild guess...

I do agree that Jason has to much light. Half that amount would be plenty.
Im guessing its an odd shape tank to have 2x54 watts over 145L

Anyways, best of luck with the tank Jason.

Thanks Homer, I'll look into them.

@Platty, the tank is basically the same size as a Juwel Rio 180. I got it made in Seahorse Aquariums. It's approx 99 x 38 x 41. But I was measuring the water when I first filled it, and between the substrate, ornaments etc. it only took 140L to fill, plus 5L in the filter

If 2x45W are too much for this tank, I can easily remove one bulb. Would you recommend removing the Nature or Day bulb, and having the active bulb at the front or the back?

I'll keep on giving Ferropol 24 and EasyCarbo to the Cryptos that are there. I do want to put some more Vallis at the back, should I do this in the next few days, or should I leave it a while to get everything, including the fish, sorted?

Thanks...

J.

@Platty, I'm not sayin that fertilization from day 1 is bad in general, it might be good if done right, but in Jasons tank with so little plants i wouldn't go with fert.

@Jason, put your Vallis as fast as you can if you are going to use Ferropol24, and try to get some fast growing plant as well (Rotala green or red for instace). can post you some plants if you want as i just trimed my main tank yesterday, let me know.

I hope you'll succeed.

Well, after a good night's work, I've replaced 130L, approx. 90% of a water change. I couldn't get anything more out of it, there was less than an inch of water left in the tank, and I had cleared away the substrate to get at the bottom to get as much out as I could.

I also got the inside of the glass cleaned and took the top layer of the substrate out too, it's now covered in a bucket to get the bacteria to die. And I gave the plants a good clean too, getting rid of a lot of the Algae on them too.

Then I filled the tank again, and added in some Filter Medium. I now have the full tank heating up again, and in an hour or so, once the Filter Medium has disapated a bit, I'll turn the filter back on.

All going well, I'll test the water tomorrow, and I'll have zero Ammonia and Nitrites, and I should have very low Nitrates. All in time for Wednesday and the fish...

So thanks for all the advice and calming me down! And thanks to platty252 for all your advice today, sorry to ambush you like that, but it really did help me.

J.

Results from tonight:

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm
pH: 7.4-7.6

So that's pretty decent. The tank is looking nice and clean, and fingers crossed it will stay that way, I don't want another algae outbreak!

Thanks...

J.

Don't you just love Science Jason.

H.

Homer wrote:

Don't you just love Science Jason.

H.

that's one of the reasons I love this hobby; anyone that developes more than a passing interest in it almost always starts to get into the science of it