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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

red connective tissue between fins and body

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27 Jan 2008 20:40 #1 by Coler (Coler)
Hi Folks,

Maybe you'd take a look at this acei. He's pretty much a mature fish, and as you will see from the pics, the tissue connecting his ventral fins to his body is red; it looks painful but he show's no other symptom, feeds well and is very active. he is probably the dominant mbuna in an all male 180 litre set-up.

Tank is 0 for ammonia & nitrite (API Liquid Drop Test Kit) and Nitrates are 5 or below, and have been for the past week (water changes every second day since I noticed this). I've been adding some melafix. I do minimum 30% change every week using Seachem Prime to dechlorinate etc.

No other fish in the tank show symptoms. I first noticed it shortly (hours/a day) after adding a new fish, which this guy hates, and chases constantly, but he is undoubtably dominant in that relationship.

It doesn't really look like a wound, and if it were one I would expect it to have improved/healed by now...nor can I see any sign of parasites.

I forgot to say, the red/inflamation is symmetrical on both sides to the same extent in the same place.

I have interpet anti-bacterial available - don't want to use though if at all possible.

All advice gratefully received.







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27 Jan 2008 21:22 #2 by Coler (Coler)
I should have said, for as long as I have had this fish (one inch) he has had a string of poo coming out of him almost permanently; but perfectly healthy normal stuff, nothing white/stringy. It looks a bit radioactive in those pics but this is a trick of the light.

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27 Jan 2008 22:17 #3 by ChrisM (ChrisM)
Replied by ChrisM (ChrisM) on topic Re:red connective tissue between fins and body
It is hard to say without actually seeing the fish.If the fish is not doing any of the following it most likely will be ok

Flicking or rubbling
Hanging near the surface and gasping for air
Engaging in lip locking and fighting

If the skin is broken (most likely not!) add some tonic salt to the tank or catch the fish and dip him for a few minutes in a salt bath to disinfect.

If it was fin rot the outside rays of the fins would start to deteriorate which is not happening.If it was bacterial the fish would start to lose colour and/or apatite at some stage.

My guess is that a brief spell of aggression or chasing took place and the Acei got carried away and ripped his ventral fin slightly.Maybe secondary infection has set in but with good water it should clear up.No need for meds yet!!

If the aggression persists re arrange the rock work.I would ease off on such frequent water changes also to allow stress levels to level off.

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27 Jan 2008 22:28 #4 by Coler (Coler)
Chris - many thanks.

He is chasing like a (rude word).

I think you're right in that if it was a bacterial infection, up there near the gills or systemic, it would be in the very short term that there would be drastic problems breathing, loss of appetite, colouration change, difficulty breathing etc.

If it was on one side only, I'd be happy enough to call it an aggravated scratch/abrasion, but its on the same place on the other side; that said he may be catching himself on corners both sides.

anyway...I'm not going to med him while this is the only symptom and no other fish show symptoms. I think I will stay on top of the water changes though, just to make sure Nitrates are nailed down very low...and if he hasn't calmed down tomorrow I will take rockwork out, take him out, redo, and put him in after having a few hours in a large bucket with a filter and a heater to think about what he's done wrong :D

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28 Jan 2008 09:56 #5 by 2poc (2poc)
Replied by 2poc (2poc) on topic Re:red connective tissue between fins and body
One of the symptoms of fin rot is redness at the root of the fins.
I'd treat with esha 2000 which is a broad spectrum treatment that should sort it out whilst not harming too much bacteria in your filter.

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28 Jan 2008 14:22 #6 by chris (chris)
It's very hard to diagnose fish from pictures only, but in my opinion red base of pectoral fin is quite an obvious sign of parasitic + secondary bacterial infection. Could you try to examine gill filaments (are they normal red colour, not pale pink, are they not slightly swollen?). Also, are you sure that belly isn't swollen, are faces normal dark brown colour, not white and slimy? Are there any small red patches around fish anus? If all these possible symptoms are negative, then I would still suggest to quarantine fish and keep observing, as in fist stages bacterial infection could show very little external symptoms and especially is fish has strong immune system and water quality is very good. If it was my fish I would quarantine and try organic tonic with antibacterial effect first. (Easylife helps in early stages of bacterial diseases). If symptoms remain after 4-5 days, I would suggest antibacterial treatment, followed by ant parasitic treatment later.

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28 Jan 2008 16:22 #7 by Coler (Coler)
thanks 2poc and other Chris :D

he's breathing very heavily, although still very active, and I notice heavy breathing in a couple of more.

my nagging gut instinct on this was always some kind of gill infection...

what anti-bacterial/parasitic medications that are generally available in Dublin shops would you reccomend ? I'm thinking I will treat the tank, as he's been in it with these symptoms for over 10 days.

I have a bottle of Interpet Antic Bacterial No.9) but have held off using.

thanks again

Eoghan

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28 Jan 2008 21:23 #8 by Coler (Coler)
and just as I look at him now, the redness has reduced...the area is still a little faded, but that horrible sore looking redness is definitely no longer present...will be holding off on the meds pending developments *fingers crossed*

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28 Jan 2008 21:50 #9 by chris (chris)
If you already decided to carry antibacterial treatment, I would personally suggest broad spectrum antibiotic such as tetracycline (oxytetracycline, chlortetracycline, doxycicline, etc.).It's important to do large water change before treatment (50% if possible). If you can't get antibiotics, then you can buy acriflavine, but it discolours the water and plastics. Antimicrobial treatment should be carried for at least 7 days and if you do any water change, top up the antibacterial agent every time. No other drugs should be used with antibiotics. Carbon should be removed from filter during treatment and it's recommended to switch off the filter for the first 24 hours, providing very good oxygen supply. After the treatment make very large water change (50-75%), add additional vitamins to the food and give fish break for 3 days. Add some live bacteria to the filter as antibiotics kill good bacteria as well as bad. After this should be no disease symptoms left. If so, do antihelmintic treatment then. Wormer Plus is available on www.wormerplus.com. I can’t give you advice regarding antibacterial stuff you have because I don’t know what ingredients are in it, but even if you use that all treatment procedure incl. water changes should remain the same. Hope it helps.

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28 Jan 2008 22:07 #10 by ChrisM (ChrisM)
Replied by ChrisM (ChrisM) on topic Re:red connective tissue between fins and body
  • Are your fish rubbing or flicking?
  • What temperature is the water?
  • IS the surface being disturbed to allow sufficient oxygen exchange?

  • Like Chris said you need to take action or rule out certain factors asap!

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    28 Jan 2008 22:48 #11 by Coler (Coler)
    gents - really appreciate the help.

    chris - that's an excellent summary of things to do when adding meds.

    chrism - no flashing, surface has outlet 1 turned up, and a spraybar on the other filter, so plenty of surface disturbance. temp is 28 C.

    I'm holding off meds - breathing is now normal, eating like a horse (all fish), redness greatly dissipated (that one fish)

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    29 Jan 2008 00:15 #12 by ChrisM (ChrisM)
    Replied by ChrisM (ChrisM) on topic Re:red connective tissue between fins and body
    28C is too hot for Malawis and most definitely Tangs.While they will tolerate it in the short term it will do them harm in the long run.

    It increases respiration levels due to oxygen being driven out of the water.Fish metabolism increases leading to increased aggression levels.All this increases the chances of infection.

    I find that 24C-26C works best but this is just me,others report success with different temps.When I kept mine at high temperatures (27C-28C) for long periods they ran into problems and lost colour and form.

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    29 Jan 2008 01:17 #13 by Coler (Coler)
    I'm an eejit - I usally have 26...then I turned it up because someone said this will heal it up faster; that being when I was thinking soft tissue injury...I have knocked it back down to 26.

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    29 Jan 2008 16:20 #14 by chris (chris)
    good advice, chris, totally agree about temperature.

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    06 Feb 2008 11:29 #15 by Coler (Coler)
    well the good news is he's fine. I was doing daily or every 2 days large water changes and just as I made my mind up to treat, when I went home that evening I saw some improvements so I held off.

    He is now a bit pale under his 'armpits', but respiration is normal, gills healthy and he remains a vigorous and active fish.

    Thanks for the help folks - it would seem as if this has sorted itself out :D

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    06 Feb 2008 14:40 #16 by Anthony (Anthony)
    Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re:red connective tissue between fins and body
    Is this actually an Acei. It looks like a hybrid to me.
    Has he always had this redness or is it recent.

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    07 Feb 2008 10:34 #17 by Coler (Coler)
    Hi Anthony

    Is it an acei - I would say so but open to suggestions otherwise; purchased as one from Whackers, and never really doubted it.

    The redness is recent...say a week or so before I posted this thread.

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    07 Feb 2008 15:53 #18 by Anthony (Anthony)
    Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re:red connective tissue between fins and body
    They look like pits to me from the photos.
    Could it be HLLE. What are you feeding him.

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    07 Feb 2008 17:39 #19 by Coler (Coler)
    I see what you mean Anthony - I don't think that's it but I'm not all that experienced and am only going by pics I see on the internet for diagnosis.

    He isn't showing a mark anywhere else, on the lateral line or otherwise. The redness is the tissue connecting the fin to the body, which has now dissipated, but there is an area of paleness in each 'armpit'.

    They get exclusively NLS Cichlid Formula pellets - he eats like the proverbial.

    Thanks for your thoughts - any further advice/suggestion would be really welcome.

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    08 Feb 2008 20:52 #20 by Sean (Fr. Jack)
    I am only 60% sure and I dont like commented if I am under 95% sure, but I dont think we are going to get a postive ID,its probally mycobacteriosis but I am not sure, this is caused by lower pH than the fish likes as well as higher temp and higher organic load.

    For get all the PFK web links this link is much more professional and make PFK look amature, relatively speaking.;)

    www.tnfish.org/FishDiseasesParasites_TWR.../Mycobacteriosis.pdf

    That would be a ecumenical matter!!!

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    08 Feb 2008 22:23 #21 by Darkrin (Damien Kane)
    As 2poc very early on stated it is bacterial.
    Its seen very commonly on imported fish, that have been grown-out in large ponds/vats in the far east.
    fish look and act normal.. just this redness at the base of the fin. Many hobbyists would rarely see it as it would be treated soon on arrival.

    Dayo ;)

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    09 Feb 2008 13:29 #22 by Coler (Coler)
    Fr Jack & Darkin thanks

    Jack - thanks for the link; of course it didn't exactly make for uplifting reading; no treatment for this and expect moderate to high mortality rate chronically unless the population is culled and the system disinfected. My Ph is 7.8, Nitrates do not get above 20 ppm on weekly water changes of 25 - 30 % so I have been presuming that the load in the tank is not excessive.

    I suppose I might as well just hope that its not mycobacteriosis as otherwise that's pretty much it for this lot :(

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    09 Feb 2008 13:30 #23 by Coler (Coler)
    Darkrin wrote:

    As 2poc very early on stated it is bacterial.
    Its seen very commonly on imported fish, that have been grown-out in large ponds/vats in the far east.
    fish look and act normal.. just this redness at the base of the fin. Many hobbyists would rarely see it as it would be treated soon on arrival.

    Dayo ;)


    do you know what to treat with ?

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    09 Feb 2008 15:57 #24 by Anthony (Anthony)
    Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re:red connective tissue between fins and body
    Anti Parasite for pond is cheapest and best.

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    09 Feb 2008 20:59 #25 by Coler (Coler)
    Anthony - are you saying treat for parasites and not bacteria ?

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    12 Feb 2008 21:53 #26 by Sean (Fr. Jack)

    When you see redness its usually bacterial, giving a bacterial diagnose is the easy part, narrow to which type of bacterial infection is more tricky.

    The parasite treatment for ponds, unless it got anit biotics is pointless and stressful especially for juvenile fish.

    The treatment in any case is stop you external filter take all the dirty filter media out and store it in the shed in the dark (6C)and keep it moist for 8 days, but not lying in water

    Restart your filter with new filter floss, and open a anti biotic capsule and spill in the powder into the water, one capsule is enough for a 2 foot tank so you will need 2 for a regular 4 foot etc pro rata., you algae will go mad and all you rock will green up excessively, if you don't like than keep the light on just in the evening (no actinic blue or u/V) feed you fish moderately and repeat treatment after 2 days, the treat again on day 4, then on day 6, run carbon on day 7 , and on day 8 swoop your new floss for the old diry floss and other media.


    You know and I know antibiotics are available in large quantise through the ITFS, its just a PM away.

    That would be a ecumenical matter!!!
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    13 Feb 2008 10:38 #27 by Coler (Coler)
    Jack - many thanks again.

    Can I ask 1) what kind of water change regime if any you would do during treatment (it seems taking out the filter media could cause spikes in parameters - I do use Seachem Prime and could dose to detox ammonia with that if necessary.

    2) this redness has come and gone and now come again. it seems to 'flare up' when he gets stressed and/or has been chasing frenetically. In circumstances where he continues to eat well and shows no other signs would you go ahead and treat ? No other fish show symptoms.

    Again, many thanks.

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    13 Feb 2008 13:08 #28 by Sean (Fr. Jack)
    Coler wrote:

    Jack - many thanks again.

    Can I ask 1) what kind of water change regime if any you would do during treatment (it seems taking out the filter media could cause spikes in parameters - I do use Seachem Prime and could dose to detox ammonia with that if necessary.

    2) this redness has come and gone and now come again. it seems to 'flare up' when he gets stressed and/or has been chasing frenetically. In circumstances where he continues to eat well and shows no other signs would you go ahead and treat ? No other fish show symptoms.

    Again, many thanks.

    I seem to recall you quote a pH less than 8pH so move it up to 8.1-8.3, temp 24C keep the feeding down, mainly greens to stop ammonia spikes, I did not bother to do any w/c when the same thing happen to me but it would make sense to use zeolites or any thing else that takes ammonia out.

    That would be a ecumenical matter!!!

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    13 Feb 2008 17:35 #29 by Coler (Coler)
    correct - 7.8; that's what it settles at in the tank, buffered by substrate and rockwork. It's 7 out of the tap.
    I'd prefer not to swing it around with additives but needs must.

    I'm leery of treating with meds - on a gut call I'm inclined to simply monitor developments for the moment; is that crazy talk i.e. if I leave it go am I missing a treatable moment and heading for disaster ? (I appreciate you possibly can not be definitive).

    Thanks again

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    13 Feb 2008 19:53 #30 by Sean (Fr. Jack)


    Your fish if still similar to the posted photo is no where near death, a table spoon of tropical marine salt will get you to the target pH, you fish does not exhibit bacterial septamania (red blotches all over the body), if you where loosing guppies one by one or corries or zebra plecs I would say you are mad not to start treating immediately with real antibiotics as these guys nearly always die of bacterial disease and no salt water baths or white spot treatment is going to bring them back, Africans are really quite strong fish, if the have fin rot they Heall them self's, the same fin rot on a discus left untreatable would be disastrous, I respect your opinion and I don't blame you for not messing about with buffers as they are dangerous but a little bit of marine salt has the same risk of an undercarriage not opening up on landing, you have to land that plane if you don't press that button you will do more damage, landing with out wheals, using antibiotic is the parshut its risky but will definitely get you down, its your choice if you refuse to engage the undercarriage.

    That would be a ecumenical matter!!!
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