Update - MORE Problems :(

Hi Guys

Seriously now, what do I need to do to keep my fish alive!!!

I came home to find that one of my mollies had died and looks to have a bruise towards it's tail fin (see pictures), one of my black angels is floating upside down but alive (see picture) and all 3 of my remaining neon tetra's were VERY pale looking.

I did a water test and all parameters are bob on!

I've switched on the air pump and thankfully, the neons are back to themselves, full of colour and zipping around the place.

I had been told not to use the air pump until the plants had finished photosynthesizing which I had been doing. Should I have the air pump on a timer during the day???

I'm getting really disheartened now because of all the problems I've had.

Thanks for any advice you can offer
Denver

Sorry denverbre is there any chance you could add links of threads that you have posted relating to problems you have had

Would need to be up to speed before i could even offer an opinion in saying that i still might not be able to

Thanks Paul

Here you go www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/fforu...94753-fish-emergency

Hi Denver,

Firstly, apologies Paul, I'm not stalking you, just think I had this problem a while back.

Denver, that in my opinion looks like Hemorrhagic Septicemia
I think I have meds that can help but I'd rather wait to see what anyone else has to say.

The pic of the Cory in the attached link exhibits The same spotting.

badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/trop...tion.html#Septicemia


Sorry again Paul.

Kev.

First thing the new tank you bought or 2nd hand tank you said you rinsed the media in your origanal tank water .
what state where the fish in where you got the tank.
where were your own fish when you were rinsing the media.

ill do a bit of checking and see if i can come up with some answere but if i was guessing i would be looking at your filter media first

can you tell by looking at the fish do they appear to be covered in a mucus like substance

No problem kevin never apologise to me unless you call me a nasty name

Thanks Kev.
Link is looking to open an email though?

Paul, I bought the tank second hand, I didn't rinse the sand or filter media so as to give the cycle process a bit of a head start.
I rinsed the filter media from my old tank in the new tank. The mollies, neons and fighting fish were still in the old tank at that stage.

All fish were 100% healthy when I transferred them from the old tank to new larger tank. Went downhill after a week or two.
The black Angel is only new to the tank, his buddy is fine as are all other fish.

I appreciate the help lads.

Denver

as for mucus, the buddy to the black angle shown in the photo does appears to look "fluffy" if that makes sense? Kind of like crushed velvet...

The black angel shown in the picture has died since taking the photo about an hour ago. (

Sorry for loss chap

the fish that you have do any of them appear stressed erratic swimming rubbing against Objects

Sorry for all the questions just trying to narrow down what the problem might be

Link is fixed, here ya go, click on the Albino Cory.

badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/trop...tion.html#Septicemia

Kev.

nope, they are all swimming around like normal, not bumping into anything or darting around in any strange way. The other black angel however is a bit wobbly, as in upright then kind of falls sideways a bit, then rights himself.

Thanks Kev.
Looks somewhat similar but not exact. There is some black / yellow bruising on my guy, similar to the color your arm would go after getting blood taken

Whatever the appearance Denver, I'd bet my life it's Bacterial.

Kev.

I have to say the image kevin posted does appear to have the same red markins as you own fish which is obviously going to be hard to see in the Angels.

My own Views

There are two things that concern me first is that filter media did the person you bought it from give you any idea or clue that they might of been having problems with there fish,you did not clean so you could of bought somthing in with it.

you also said it was running up to the hour before collecting it which means it was either sitting in still water or it was sitting out of water either was a lot of bacteria was going to gone
Which means your tank would of needed to cycle i know kevin supplied you with some assistance there great stuff.

And do you know if there has been any work or chemical added to your water supply latly based on the information i am thinking Chlorine.

Sorry if any of the above sound condesending it is not my intention

@ Kev - Could well be. Could you give me the name of the treatments you mention above and I can try pick some up tomorrow

@ Paul - No he had been keeping Cichlids which he sold just before I came. He drained the tank just before I arrived.
He didn't mention any issues to me, his reason for selling was that he was upgrading to a bigger tank and going Marine. I cycled for just over 3 weeks and had Seahorse Aquarium's do a complete water test prior to transferring my existing stock and they gave the all clear.

Its very difficult to tell if additional chemicals have been introduced to the water supply. I live in the city centre so it's very possible. I always use NutraFin Aqua Plus Tap Water Conditioner when changing water and if anything, I always put an extra splash in for good measure. I do a 20 / 25% change once a week religiously.

Don't worry Paul, not condescending at all! I'm a total amateur so I'm extremely grateful for any help!

PM sent.

Kev.

If this was me and i stress if it were me

if you still have an empty clean tank i would boil up water let it cool add your NutraFin once its at the wright heat but in a air stone and your heater and put your fish in there do sufficiant water changes within this tank using the same princeable to keep water freah.

And i would be doing water changes in your main maybe 20 30% each day for maybe 5 days again using the same princible

I do appreciate that this might not be managable as i say this is what i would do

Good Idea Paul but I'm afraid I have no way of doing this. Old tank was too small to accommodate the number of fish I have now and I no longer have it.

Heres some photos of the black angel, difficult to make out the "fuzz" but it might be familiar to you?

make sure the nutrafin has water dechlorinate in it some water safe products dont you could always get onto the water supply crowd see if they have added extra chemicals to the water lately

also you little Angel fish is looking a bit worse for ware his fins look like they are a bit shredded is that wright

I think further advise would be very usefull hear denverbre i would PM JohnH Kevin Ian any of the longer forum members who might not be looking at the thread at the moment ask them to have a look at the pictures you just posted

I think that could be fin rot on your angel but i would be asking for more opinions

Ive added a link for you to view but the fin rot might coinside with water quality

www.fishlore.com/aquariummagazine/feb08/fish-finrot.htm

Without knowing the exact cause of the problem, I would add polyfilter to the filter or even just put it in the tank. It will absorb any excess ammonia or nitrites if the filter isnt doing its job. It will also remove a whole range of chemical, metals and toxins from the water, just in case something nasty is in your water supply. (take it out if you use any medications)

That Angel is in a really sorry state - its hard to see from the pics, but his fins are really badly eroded. Unless he's been getting nipped, I would have thought theres a water quality problem.

I'm convinced you have Bacterial problems Denver.

Ta for the PM Paul.


Kev.

Hiya - Sorry to read about your problem - This poor Angel looks in a poor state indeed (

I would try the eSHA medication which seems IMO does a good job at clearing things up. If you are treating the tank with medication, make sure you remove the carbon filter as it'd cancel the effect by filtering it out.

I am no specialist though - there might be others who can jump in to help out

Best of luck

Valerie

Hi, I got a PM from another member here on the post. So cheers to that person.

Without details on exact water quality, and not being able to eliminate any clearly visible parasites/infections (some faecal and skin smears would be needed), it would be difficult to give an absolute diagnosis.

However, the angel fish certainly looks like a typical case of stress induced secondary infection (most likely bacterial infection, but intestinal parasites or external ciliated parasites can also cause the same). It could be new water syndrome, but that is effectively the same thing.

As Kev says, the molly looks like a case of bacterial haemorrhage.

This does not look like a problem that has come about as a result of long-term problem (ie not something like bad feeding) unless a recent change disturbed the balance.

Things that might have caused the problem ( a few):
a) rotten food being eaten by the fish when the gravel or filter was disturbed (dislodging fungal or bacterial laden muck)
b) an acid crash
c) ammonia spike
d) having an large anoxic (no oxygen) area somewhere in the tank.
e) other stressors (heavy metals, toxic compounds)

Those stresses would allow a rapid lowering of the immune system and let various bugs get a hold.

The Solution...(difficult without a full diagnosis):
a) get the water well oxygenated 24hrs a day, and get all areas of the tank receiving circulated water.

b) Take a bucket of the aquarium water and clean all filters and filter pads in it. Clean all the piping within the filter under running water to remove gunk. If any filter pads look really clogged then replace them so long as you don't replace all of them at once.

c) Vacuum clean the gravel.

d) change 25/30% of the water and treat with a good dechlorinator (Tetra Aqua safe will remove chlorines, chloramines and the ammonia from tap water as well as supply chelating agents to rid heavy metals, and a supply of vitamin B1). Some dechlorinators just remove chlorine but may produce ammonia if chloramines are present in the tap water.

e)Add a broad spectrum anti-bacterial agent such as eSHa 2000 or Waterlife's Octozin (sold for Hole-in-the-head). Waterlife's Myxazin is excellent, but needs special care.
Remove any filter carbon.

f) do not turn that aerator off at all. Many medications will compromise oxygen needs anyway, and oxygen re-balances the water to help fight infections.

Now, an alternative that I would use would be to pass the water through an ammonia removing resin before adding the medicine. But, that is only any use if you have a large filter capable of circulating the water effectively.

If the angel fish were a larger fish then it would have a good chance of survival, but sadly youngsters may not overcome the infection.

ian

Guys, I can't thank you enough for the advice you have given. Who ever PM'd Ian, a big thank you!

Ian, I'll carry out all of your advice tonight when I get home. I set a timer for the air pump last night to only cut out for 2 hours during the day but I'm going to leave it running constantly as soon as I get home.

I'm going to go up to the pet shop place in Carrickmines as it's close to work and pick up the treatments you mentioned. Would it be an idea to remove all coral sand from the tank and wash it? Its going to be a major job but if it means one less thing to cause an issue I'm more than willing.

Regarding water quality, I'm swaying more and more towards an RO unit at this point. Need to do some more research on this and how I can set it up for water change purposes only. Has anyone done this?

I have 2 larger angels in the tank and they are happy as Larry thankfully. After I removed one of them who was stressing them they came into their own and are really starting to show their personallity and they are ALWAYS beside each other so great to see they have paired off even though they are still young.

Again, THANK YOU!

Denver

I happen to know that Carrickmines usually stock all the medicines mentioned above, so it won't be wasted journey (the shop there is only up the road from me as I live in Cabinteely).

Normally, I wouldn't put coral sand in with angel fish...so maybe an idea to get rid of all of it (although some coral sand buffering might be good if the water is very soft and acidic).

As for RO units.....??......they only solve certain problems. In fact, incorrect use of RO units and subsequent incorrect mixing of replacement salts is likely to cause similar problems as I see in the angel fish. If not used correctly, they will cause un-balanced water conditions....which lead to stress and death.

I don't normally like to advise people on something being a waste of money as that is only an opinion, but for most fish species and if you have a limited number of tanks then maybe a better choice (if the supply water is not great) is to invest in one of the 170 litre plastic clip-lid containers from Woodies (on sale at present for about 30 odd euro), get a cheap powerful filter with air-flow ventura action and having ammonia removal resin and carbon, and set-up water change water several days in advance using Tetra Aqua safe added. It would be cheaper, and take up less space than an RO unit (and you wouldn't have to work out what to do with all the excess waste water from an RO unit either).

If you have Marines or wild-caught discus or chocolate gouramis then an RO unit might be worth getting (although for chocolate gouramis it's easier to buy the water from the LFS)

ian

Hi Ian

What substrate would be suitable for Angels in your experience?

On the RO unit, this is the research I was talking about, that balancing act of adding back the good minerals it strips out. I'll take your advice on that one and stick with what I have at the moment. Great idea about the containers.. hadn't thought of that.

I don't have any of the stock you mention. It was my intention to keep Discus because they are stunning fish IMO but from researching before setting up the tank, I saw that they are quite delicate and really sensitive to conditions... That being said, The issues I'm having at the moment seem to be along the same lines with hardier fish!

I would use inert substrate for angels....eg the small aquarium gravel.

With your tank, I'm not too sure I saw how long these sick fish had been in the tank.

Maybe think about Discus a little later. But if you get good stock (captive bred, not wild) in the first place then setting up a good tank is actually not that difficult.
If you buy poor stock, then you will end up with a nightmare. For those who buy wild caught discus, they know the challenge that is ahead. !!
If you fancy thinking about Discus for the future, then put up a post.... there are plenty of discus keepers here to help guide you in the right direction (even though we may all have our little differences in opinion on some things).
Basically, it is easy to have a good filter system, it is easy to do regular partial water changes, it is easy to have a good heater to get the higher temperatures for discus, it is easy to feed a good quality food balance, and water conditions for most captive bred discus are easy to get.

Don't be put off by your loses. Think to the future.

ian

I'll go about changing the substrate once I get them healthy I think. I don't want to change too many variables at one time and totally stress them out or I'll end up with a total loss.

The tank is fully operational now about a month I guess, maybe 3 weeks. The Molly's were transfered over from my smaller tank around then.

Yep! Had expected it to be easier than this. I did my homework before delving into a bigger tank and expected some teething problems but my run with this set up has gone far beyond what I expected unfortunately.

I'll be honest, I'm seriously frustrated by the issues and disheartend but I'm not a quitter so I WILL get it running properly. I'm nothing if tenacious
My ultimate goal is to breed some Angels. That would give me great satisfaction.

Denver

Hi Guys
I've cleaned the filter, removed the carbon filter and added some eSHa 2000 to the tank.
After doing this, i noticed that one of my angles looks to have a bloody nose... if he had a nose.

Any ideas? He doesn't look to be visibly distressed, or swimming erratically.