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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

Fishless cycle - raw pranws method -

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19 Dec 2013 21:16 - 04 Jan 2014 23:05 #1 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Hi,

Last Friday I filled my tank and dechrorinated the water, on Saturday night I added 2 raw prawns and did my first test few days later:

17, Thuesday

PH -> 7.6
Ammonia -> 1.0 - 2.0 ppm
Nitrite -> 1.0 ppm
Nitrate -> 20 - 40 ppm

19, Thursday

Ammonia -> 2.0 ppm
Nitrite -> 5.0 ppm
Nitrate -> 40 - 80 ppm
PH -> 7.6
High Range PH -> 7.4

Maybe I wasn't supposed to look for Nitrites or Nitrates at this stage but I was curious. Also I don't know if my PH is ok. When should I take the prawns out? :sick:

Is the cycling going ok?

Thanks
Last edit: 04 Jan 2014 23:05 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera).

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19 Dec 2013 21:30 #2 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Hi Lydia...

I didn't really test for Nitrites and Nitrates at the start, but I would have thought you shouldn't see them high yet, as the filter needs time to convert the Ammonia to them. For me the Ammonia went higher and higher and when it started to drop I could see the spike in Nitrites... But a lot of people on here have a lot more experience in this than me!

By the way, I also get 7.4 pH in the High Range pH test and 7.6 in the Low Range one. Very annoying, wish the results made sense... :)

J.

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19 Dec 2013 22:43 #3 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Jason thanks for answering, I guess I'll find out if I'm doing ok sooner or later...
I' ve been searching on internet but most info is about the add fish food or clear ammonia methods.

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19 Dec 2013 23:34 #4 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
During the initial stages of the maturation you are gonna see an unstable system....and that includes the pH.

pH affects the nitrogen cycle and the nitrogen cycle affects the pH eg pH will change the distribution of ammonia to ammonium ions and the speed at which ammonia is oxidised, and ammonia and ammonium will contribute to the pH to varying extents.

I would say it wise to test for nitrites and for nitrates at the start.....that will give you a nice baseline figure to compare future tests against.

The establishment of a decent system to convert ammonia to nitrites can be quite rapid (a few days).
The system to convert nitrites to nitrates can take much longer (several weeks....maybe upto 6 weeks) just to have a half decent biological system working.

The speed of establishment depends on the water quality and how much innoculation (seeding) the water has with appropriate bacteria.

I would not worry too much about a stable pH until you have an reasonably established biological filter system.....but the pH should not wander too madly from a normal range else the biological filtration could be easily killed off.

ian

Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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20 Dec 2013 01:50 #5 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Ian thanks for your answer, explains me a lot
Seems is going well and my readings are "normal". I will do another test on Saturday and will update the post with the results.

Regarding the quality of the water I don't have a clue of it, but both my skin and hair is pretty healthier with irish water than with the spanish one :)

Which I don't know if is the ammonia is enough, is it 2.0 ppm as it's maximum result good enough or should it increase untill +=4?

Been reading some pages of the Health and Water forum and I've found some people having issues with API Master Kit regarding Nitrates, mine are crazy also.

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20 Dec 2013 11:25 #6 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
It takes a lot longer than a few days to tell if the tank is on its way to being suitable or not in reality.

I would recommend adding an innoculting culture of bacteria...."bacteria in a bottle" that can be got from many aquatic shops and sold under a variety of trade names by different companies.
That can help speed up the maturation process.

If the ammonia concentration goes too high it will kill or halt the nitrifying bacteria.....so I would not raise the concentration any higher.

Having the pH slightly on alkaline side is beneficial for speeding up the establishment of the a decent biological filter system at these early stages.

On the story of the difference between the high and low pH reading kit.......the pH difference of 0.2 is a difference of 1.6 in acid concentratiuon terms (ie the acid concentration at pH 7.4 is 1.6 times greater than at pH 7.6).
These test kits are not very accurate and are not really supposed to be.....you cannot compare one test kit with another.
Even changes in temperature can make changes in pH reading.
I would not worry about the difference you are seeing with the tests done on 2 different test kits to be honest.

ian

Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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20 Dec 2013 13:41 #7 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Hi Ian, thanks again :)

When you say bacteria in a bottle is something like Seachem Stability or Nutrafin Cycle? Do you trust in any product in particular?

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20 Dec 2013 16:30 #8 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
In recommending a "best" product, it would mean assuming that the persons local aquatic shops sells it.

I have tested Nutrafin Cycle.....it does a job and seems to be available in so many places.
JBL do a filter start product.....I tend to use that as it is cheap and works well.
Tetra also do a "tank start" type product that I have tested when it first came out, and it also works.

There are many others, and some are much better than others....and better than nothing.

ian

Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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20 Dec 2013 17:09 #9 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Is that the JBL one?
www.seahorseaquariums.com/JBL-FilterStart//1475
If this is it the instructions seems a bit confussing for me, I tried at www.jbl.de website but all what I found was other specifications about the product.

How many will I need for a 180l? Do I have to do a water change before adding this product?

Thanks

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20 Dec 2013 17:50 #10 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
The product is added according to volume of the filter.

It is only about 4 or 5 euro a bottle.

You simply allow the filter material to soak in a solution of the JBL product for a short while (so, if you have an external filter simply fill it with water and add the appropriate amount of the JBL filter start and stand for the stated time on the product).

When that time is up (it is not long) then simply switch on the filter.

If you soak filter material separate from the filter then do not through the bacterial solution away.....add it back to the tank.

I am a bit lost as to what the instructions on the link are about....plus you should note that nitrate are not not-toxic.

ian

Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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20 Dec 2013 18:02 #11 by paulv (paul vickers)
Ive used both API stress zyme and denitrol by JBL, I use stress zyme after filter cleaning and ive used denitrol to seed a new filter. Both are good, denitrol is a once only use and stress zyme can be used on a weekly basis to maintain a healthy filter.

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20 Dec 2013 19:47 #12 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Thanks both, I will try denitrol seems more for starting.

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26 Dec 2013 19:59 - 26 Dec 2013 20:00 #13 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Hi guys and girls, hope your enjoying the holidays!

I'm still doing the normal cycle (since I'm waiting for the seahorse order)

26/12/13

Ammonia -> 0
Nitrite -> 5 ppm
Nitrate -> 160 ppm
PH -> 7.6


The prawns have almost disappeared.

Also I did some test to the tap water, the readings for Ammonia and Nitrites were 0 but Nitrates were 5 ppm and the PH 7.2. Is it normal having Nitrates?

I also have 2 kind of snails from some plants I bought should I keep them or take them out? They've been there for two weeks and have grown a bit.



Last edit: 26 Dec 2013 20:00 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera).

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26 Dec 2013 20:19 #14 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
It would not be unusual to have nitrates in the tap water.....but there is a legal limit due to the fact that they pose a serious health issue (due methaemoglobinaemia) to babies and to people with certain circulatory disorders.
5ppm nitrate is nothing to worry about for fish keeping.

However, your 160ppm nitrate and 5ppm nitrite are very much a problem for fish keeping.

I would recommend doing a 50% water change and seeing if that will help drive the oxidation of more nitrite to nitrates.

Then you will need at least another few partial water changes to get the nitrate to level suitable for fish (the nitrites should lower with bacterial action).

ian

Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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26 Dec 2013 20:23 - 26 Dec 2013 20:24 #15 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Thanks Ian,

I'll do it tomorrow and see if the levels get reduced in the next few days.
I will ask you after the weekend about the next water changes.
Last edit: 26 Dec 2013 20:24 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera).

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26 Dec 2013 21:04 #16 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
As your nitrite and nitrate levels are equal to the maximum your test kits show, you may find that a water change does nothing to the readings if the true readings are well above the maximum shown on your kits.....but that is why we want to test that.

ian

Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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26 Dec 2013 21:14 #17 by Gonefishy (Brian oneill)
Hi Lydia,
I've cycled tanks the traditional way but also using organic aqua - this product really does work and you don't have to wait at all to add fish. I've done so without a single casualty. You won't be able to take water readings in first few weeks however as they just won't make sense - the product interferes with such tests.

Lots of data on here about it with lots of posts.... Here's one I found....

www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/forum...venture?limitstart=0

Hope this helps! Happy Xmas btw.

Brian

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26 Dec 2013 23:31 - 26 Dec 2013 23:31 #18 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Hi Brian,

I was supposed to add Denitrol for helping the filter but my delivery was delayed because there weren't some items in stock and have to wait before Christmas :S

About organic aqua...once you start with this method you have to maintain it always, I mean you need to keep adding bacteria each few days forever? Are water changes less frequent than with the old method?
Last edit: 26 Dec 2013 23:31 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera).

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27 Dec 2013 11:03 #19 by Gonefishy (Brian oneill)

Hi Brian,

I was supposed to add Denitrol for helping the filter but my delivery was delayed because there weren't some items in stock and have to wait before Christmas :S

About organic aqua...once you start with this method you have to maintain it always, I mean you need to keep adding bacteria each few days forever? Are water changes less frequent than with the old method?


Hi Lydia, no absolutely not. You don't have to continue forever with this product. There's the starter kit which is a one off addition and then you add one quarter of a bottle of liquid each week for four weeks (included in the kit, probably bacteria stock). They also sell some maintenance kit but I never used that at all.....once you have fish in the tank, which you can add immediately with this product, the tank will build its own ecosystem of bacteria to break down waste product from the fish....

I believe if you do use the maintenance kit though you don't have to do nearly as many water changes - I have heard some people only do a 30% change once a month using this regime. I don't have any direct experience of this though but I have heard some of the sponsors confirm that this can actually be done In a safe manner for your fish stock. I do 30% a week change and just used OA to kick start the tank. It's simple to use btw....nothing complicated...hope this helps.

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01 Jan 2014 20:32 #20 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Happy new year everyone!

Brian seems your way is better, at least for beginners (like me) for whom in some cases is difficult maintain water params.

I did a 50% water change this saturday and I had half of the tank without water for at least two hours, I was changing some plants, taking out some manado and it took me a lot of time.

Today I have tested my water and these are the results:

Ammonia -> 0ppm
Nitrite -> 0ppm
Nitrate -> 20 - 40ppm

Since I had almost half of my filter media with no water for 2 h I'm suspecting maybe I killed all the bacteria during the water change and this is the reason I have these params.

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04 Jan 2014 22:52 #21 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Hi guys and girls

After few days I did a test today and these are my params:

Ammonia -> 0 ppm
Nitrite -> 0 ppm
Nitrates -> 10 - 20 ppm

Do I need still to add bacteria or is it cycled already? Should the nitrates be =< 5 ppm?

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05 Jan 2014 10:07 #22 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Hi Lydia,

Those parameters look decent, but I'm not sure if the tank is cycled or not. Is there still a source of Ammonia in the tank (i.e. the prawns)? If there is, and your test results are 0ppm for Ammonia, then I'd be happy that your tank could be cycled. However, if you removed the prawns, then the Ammonia source is gone, and then the tank might not be cycled yet (if that makes sense?).

As for the Nitrates, these can really only be lowered through Water Changes, a cycled filter will create Nitrates, it doesn't get rid of them. It wouldn't be a bad idea to test your Tap Water Nitrates (take a sample of tap water, leave it for 24 hours and then test it) to see what your 'base' level of Nitrates are. My tap water Nitrates is 0-5ppm for example, and my tank is always around 5ppm Nitrates, with a 33% Water Change done every week.

I hope that all makes sense?

Thanks...

J.

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05 Jan 2014 10:13 #23 by paulv (paul vickers)
Hi lydia, id say your water is very good now. Keeping it like this is the trick, you can do this by adding a few fish at a time and dont over feed, do weekly 25% water changes.

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05 Jan 2014 11:34 #24 by Miamiheat (Stephane Lemaire)
throw a couple of fish (hardy fish) and keep on checking, if everything ok in a few days buy more fish

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06 Jan 2014 19:21 #25 by Aroshni (Lydia Olivera)
Hi guys and girls

I went yesterday to seahorse and brought the denitrol with me among other things :evil: . I have to keep adding a bit everyday for the next 9 days.
In the instructions says is safe adding fishes in the next 24 -48 h but dunno how safe is it.
I have to go back seahorse this week and maybe I buy an assasin snail since each day there are a lot of snails and eggs.

Are assasin snails dangerous for cherry shrimp?

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