Setting up my tank??

There is one product in the US that does appear to work. It's called Bio Spira.

Tetra SafeStart is the same stuff..... Tetra bought them out last year

I thought it was the other way round. tetra was bought out by them

perhaps. Not to sure. Anyway - practically the same company now.[/quote]

In an freshwater tank, if the pH is lower than 7pH then most of the ammonia (NH3) is in a much more nontoxic form known as ammonium (NH4), also the other advantage of freshwater over sea water is the freshwater do not drink the water, so they would by the very nature not be effect like say a copper banded butterfly would be however is not all good new for freshwater, as they do not tolerate nitrite (NO2) unlike marines.

Last week especially lamyeye was obsessed with test kits and could not understand why I have not bought on in 19 years.
The same biotic text kit is available for ammonia, the fill filaments have swollen balloons at the tips of the gill filements (marines ammonia poisoning) hence gills panting,and with freshwater nitrite poisioing it effect the ability to transport oxygen around the blood, and even effect the neurological acitivit in the brain, i.e heartbeat etc, (to the lawman) the fish goes mad, listless losses colour, and under extremely high level, crooks.

so you reccomend safestart to give my tank the "safe start" it needs???

No, I would not buy bacteria in a bottle, I would get filter wool, from the SAME tank as the first test fish, that way if you do bring white spot or what ever, you would of got it any way as it came from the SAME tank, if you dont your could run more risk of diease 2 or 3 weeks down the road as the fish will be stressed out anyway, if you expose then to high nitrite unnessary......which is worst evil.

In an freshwater tank, if the pH is lower than 7pH then most of the ammonia (NH3) is in a much more nontoxic form known as ammonium (NH4), also the other advantage of freshwater over sea water is the freshwater do not drink the water, so they would by the very nature not be effect like say a copper banded butterfly would be however is not all good new for freshwater, as they do not tolerate nitrite (NO2) unlike marines.

Last week especially lamyeye was obsessed with test kits and could not understand why I have not bought on in 19 years.
The same biotic text kit is available for ammonia, the fill filaments have swollen balloons at the tips of the gill filements (marines ammonia poisoning) hence gills panting,and with freshwater nitrite poisioing it effect the ability to transport oxygen around the blood, and even effect the neurological acitivit in the brain, i.e heartbeat etc, (to the lawman) the fish goes mad, listless losses colour, and under extremely high level, crooks.

Ammonium is still extremely dangerous to fish.
Does Sodium chloride coat the gills of marine fish too making it hard for them to aborb Nitrite like fresh water fish.

Not exactly, like icing cake, its they have a diffrent pH pump to freshwater fish, in simple terms at an ionic level betwwen the blood stream pH and the water pH, is different between freshwater and marine, getting back to ammonium, dont confuse it to ammonia, although I suppose in an african set up it could be a problem?(pH higher than 7.5)

Any way dont mis quote me, I never said amonina is not toxic to freshwater fish, what I am trying to same, is marine are more vunerable to Ammonia, than freshwater fish, and the reverse for nitite, thats why I do not think a beginner of freshwater should be all that bothered with ammonia and nitrate test kits, just really nitrite and a thermometer, another very common mistake is too fast flow rate an not enough place without current for the fish to rest in.

I blame it all on the LFS, e.g 2 weeks ago I went to one shop with my son, to buy 2 terapins, (the tank was already set uo even witha n eheim canasiter exteranal filter, I noticed a girl that works there putting in some kind of liquid into the a mixed invert and fish) they said to me you know how to look after these terapins????, as I never had them before <i took their advise, I should of kept my mouth shut, but I could not help notice you put 2 different liquids which you broke of a glass bud, she said one is food nutrients for the inverts (I said fine) the other is to get rid of the ammonia and nitrites (I said thats noramally onlyuse in transit bags, and is a complete waste of money putting into the tanks as you have a mature filter. I said I have also notice the fish have marine whitespot (oddiuium),I said how are you going to treat them, they said we are not, because quote if the fish are feeding they will recover on their own. Needless to say this week I was back there and the fish are not there so either they sold them with a heay investation of diesae or they are dead, talking of dead we should have a vote of how to put to sleep LFS owners that keep inverts/and fish together (not show tanks ),
1. should they be taken outside and shot.

2, force to drink anti ammonia liquid,

or 3 force to eat a technical fish book to they choke.

We wasted alot of mega bites talking about dying fish, but what about the muppets that have no clues, the list could go on, but one more example, a few months ago I was buying a TROPICAL (live in hot water) fish they all looked the same he caught the fish and then it fell on the ground, I said as they all look the same and I dont what tto be netted again so I said I would rather you put in anther tank, he could of put it in a number of tropical tanks, but instead he poped into a COLDWATER tank, to my amasement, let me add option 4, hanging the LFS owner.

5. My favourite, a swift kick in the b****x.
By the way Sean I now have a spot for my Marines in the hall. Courtesy of her in doors. What do you think of a Skimmer and live rock with power heads or power heads filther and live rock with out Skimmer or everything with the Skimmer. Might not be big enough for a sump.

What do you think of a Skimmer and live rock with power heads or power heads filther and live rock with out Skimmer or everything with the Skimmer. Might not be big enough for a sump.

Clarify power heads or power heads filter?

Power heads.

Hi Anthony, I know a power head is pump and a power head filter is a filter with a pump, but what filter, mechanical, bio, internal, external, please make it clear so even a beginner understand what you are asking, as the terminology or what they are called may have changed in the last couple of decades. (basically I dont understand the thread) :roll:

Being a beginner myself I will put is as simple as possible.

First idea.
Tank.
Live rock.
Skimmer.
Power head for current.
No fiilther.

Second idea.
Tank.
Live rock.
External filther.
No Skimmer.

Third.
Tank.
Live rock.
External filther.
Power head for current(dead spots)
Skimmer.

The problem is you will not have an quarantine tank, and not if but when you get disease some of the small inverts that live in the rock will be whipped out, the advantage of the live rock its it brings in all the right strains of bacteria, to help you have a balance system.
If I was you I would go for a simple fish only system full of volcanic rock or belington rock, and once set up "peg" it with one or 2 small piece of real live rock" the good bacteria will spread to the inert regular rock, but you wont have all the inverts to possible kill if you have to treat them.
An external canister filter with a ice cream size trickle filter with the waste hole bored halfway up so there is almost no movement in the bottom half so it Will de niraate, provided it is full of coral sand to water mark, and above that in the semi dry are pea size volcanic gravel. You will have to tee the water so 80% returns to the tank and 20% goes through the trickle filter, you will need a thermometer and nitrite test kit, and a hydrometer, and if you are going to just put a pair of clowns in the small tank that's it, if it was a much bigger fish only system you could put a skimmer, you must get some mature media for your trickle filter even if it is just half a handful. So the the basic concept is non of the above, the more advance one is adding inverts AFTER all the fish are in, so in effect you have qua tined them in their own tank, if you do have to treat them, keep carbon in the system to protect the inverts from a leach out, naturally changing the carbon regualarly. Be wary of inverts, I find it ironic when a member post a beautiful photo of a new invert, they never post photos after 3 to 4 years, as its most probally dead, the pegs of live rock would of spread overt all of the inert rock within a year so what ever has "bread" in your tank is there to stay for good, you have to bare in mind by views are bit biased, I am always looking at ways to do the minimum work, in fact not work, that involves replacing inverts every 3 years, so my invert tanks will never be the best, fish only tanks are easier providing you stick to fish that have a big mouth in relation to their body, i.e damsels, clowns, lion fish, angels larger than 3.5 inches, tangs over 3.5 inches providing you have plenty of algae, for them, stay away from butterflies, (except band er fish) sweetlips, seahorses, pipe fish, box fish moorish idols.

Thanks mate.
Cant write longer post as Battlestar Galactica is about to start.

Anthony, Pearse ... Suggest you repost last back and forth in the marines section. May be of use to someone like Anthony comtemplating such a thing.

Monty

Thanks mate.
Cant write longer post as Battlestar Galactica is about to start.

Should download it... watch it when you want to then..... I get the following every week (usually new episodes from the states)

Battlestar
Stargate (SG-1 (UK now ahead of US) & Atlantis (Canada ahead of US))
My Name Is Earl
Boston Legal
Desperate Housewives & Grey's Anatomy for the missus
CSI Vegas & Miami
Family Guy
Lost
Criminal Minds
Scrubs
Trailer Park Boys (new series soon)

means I watch TV when I want to, not when Sky/C4/RTE say's I have too....

Anto sounds like you are a couch potato, I can sell sky plus receivers with an Irish or English sky card at trades, press the colour boton to serial link and record the entire series.

Trailer Park Boys
Fu**ing best thing on tele after Lost!!!I though I was the only fan .....""Two smokes,lets go Cory and Trevor"!!!!!

Its good to see Im not the only fan in Ireland!!!

Trailer Park Boys
Fu**ing best thing on tele after Lost!!!I though I was the only fan .....""Two smokes,lets go Cory and Trevor"!!!!!

Its good to see Im not the only fan in Ireland!!!

Has to be the funniest program on telly. Have all 6 seasons downloaded....

Thanks mate.
Cant write longer post as Battlestar Galactica is about to start.

Should download it... watch it when you want to then..... I get the following every week (usually new episodes from the states)

Battlestar
Stargate (SG-1 (UK now ahead of US) & Atlantis (Canada ahead of US))
My Name Is Earl
Boston Legal
Desperate Housewives & Grey's Anatomy for the missus
CSI Vegas & Miami
Family Guy
Lost
Criminal Minds
Scrubs
Trailer Park Boys (new series soon)

means I watch TV when I want to, not when Sky/C4/RTE say's I have too....

Do you ever go out.
Sorry but I am not a couch potato. The only thing I watch on tv is BG and football and Rugby. I like to drink a lot too.